DHH：当 agent 写完全部代码，人还剩下什么

- There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. If you're not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that's the delusion. That's the psychosis. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, "You can have whatever you want. DHH：有些十年里什么都没发生，有些几周里发生了相当于十年的事。而过去九个月里，我们已经看到了相当于几十年的进展。如果你还认不出这一刻的分量，那才是错觉，那才是精神病。如果突然有一个精灵从瓶子里跳出来，对你说：“你想要什么都行。

Every feature you've ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it's gonna take me two hours." I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds. 你梦想过的操作系统里每一个功能我都能给你，大多数只要五分钟，少数要二十分钟，如果我们真的放开手脚，最多两个小时。 ”我想要最快的车，快到可以超速。我想要能潜到马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。我想要能在不到 60 秒内装完的操作系统。

One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I'd lay down on the garage floor and just think,"Holy fuck, I'm alive." The Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. 赛车让我一直热爱的一件事是：当我跌跌撞撞从车里出来，整个人被撞得稀烂，几乎抬不起头，躺在车库地板上，心里只想着，“我靠，我还活着。 ”Overton window 不会自己打开。它是一次一次被轻轻推开的，靠的是人们愿意冒一点风险。一点点名声，一点点反击，一点点批评；或者有时是大量名声、大量批评、大量反击。

Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet. 和你爱的人一起创造生命，这就是活在这个星球上真正的巅峰体验。

- The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world. For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code. 主持人：以下是与 David Heinemeier Hansson 的对话，他也被称为 DHH，Ruby on Rails 的创造者、37signals 的 CTO、新的 Omarchy Linux 操作系统的创造者、畅销书作者、赛车手，也是世界上最敢说、最高产的程序员之一。

But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term. So let's say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste. Yes, it's true. 过去二十多年，对他来说，编程意味着一丝不苟地亲手打磨美丽的 Ruby。代码。但最近，从 2025 年末开始，DHH 拥抱了 AI 革命，并再次公开把自己变成最敢说、最高产的 agentic engineers 之一，尽管他讨厌这个词。那就叫正在变成的那种编程的实践者吧：AI 做大部分实际编程，人用高层设计、愿景和品位来掌舵。

DHH is at times controversial, but he's always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to. This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. 是的，这是真的。 DHH 有时会有争议，但他始终无畏、聪明，而且聊起来很有趣。这又是一次紧张、令人大开眼界、像疯狂过山车一样的对话。这是 Lex Fridman podcast。若要支持它，请查看 description 里的赞助商，那里也有联系我、提问、给出反馈等链接。

And now, dear friends, here's DHH. 13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed. At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering. So, simple question to start: How has your view on AI's role in programming changed? Are you excited? Are you terrified? Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride? 现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请 DHH。 13 个月前，我们就坐在这里谈编程，然后一切都变了。那时你对 AI 在编程过程中的角色还有些怀疑，随后我们经历了 agentic engineering 的急速演进。所以先问一个简单的问题：你对 AI 在编程中角色的看法发生了怎样的变化？你是兴奋，是害怕，还是正坐在情绪过山车上？

- I am incredibly excited. - You've been talking about fun a lot. - There is none of the existential threat. That doesn't exist for me as an emotional component. It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy- ... and optimism and amazement that we've made computers do this. And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it's like we talked in different universes, different eras. DHH：我极度兴奋。主持人：你最近一直在谈乐趣。 DHH：不存在那种生存威胁。它对我来说不是情绪上的成分。它只作为智力上的成分存在，而我的情绪成分是 100% 纯粹、未经稀释的喜悦—— … …以及乐观，以及我们居然让计算机做到了这件事的惊叹。我觉得特别有意思的是，我们只是 13 个月前谈过，却像是在不同的宇宙、不同的时代谈的。

I love this quote. I think it's Lenin. There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. 我喜欢这句话，我想是列宁说的：有些十年里什么都没发生，有些几周里发生了相当于十年的事。

And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. I mean, imagine you're there when the Wright brothers take flight. Yesterday, the New York Times would write, "It's gonna be 10,000 years before we fly," and then the day after, we're up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes. The whole world has completely changed. What a blessing to be there in that moment. 而过去九个月里，我们已经看到了相当于几十年的进展。想象你就在莱特兄弟起飞的那一刻。昨天《纽约时报》还会写：“距离人类飞行还有一万年”，第二天我们就上了天，再过几年就有了跨大西洋航班。整个世界彻底变了。能身处那个时刻，是怎样的福分。如果你把整个人类历史拉远来看，有多少人能活在自己出生时那个纪元被彻底改写的过程里？

If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in? They never saw that complete change of the world and of society. And to have been blessed with two of those feels just such a privilege. I got to see the internet- ... from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI. What an amazing run. 他们从未见到世界和社会发生这种完全的变化。而我居然有幸经历两次，真是一种特权。我看到了互联网—— … …从互联网之前到互联网之后，现在又是 AI 之前到 AI 之后。多么惊人的一段经历。多么幸运。主持人：是啊，但问题是，这感觉比人类历史上任何事情都更快。

How fortunate. - Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history. - Correct. - So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November- - November 24. - This is... - That's the exact moment. - You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it-- this is how we talk about AI changing everything. DHH：没错。主持人：所以我会说大概在十二月，也许十一月下旬——DHH：11 月 24 日。主持人：这就是… … DHH：那就是精确时刻。主持人：你知道，人们谈论世界大战里一个国家入侵另一个国家时，就是用这种方式。我们现在就是这样谈论 AI 改变一切。是的，而且它真的让很多优秀开发者发生了转变。

Yeah, the... And it really just sh- shifted for many great developers. It shifted to where AI is doing some, basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code to writing 80% of code. - Or 100. - Or 100, yeah, especially if it's not a public-facing product. - To me, that's why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don't actually have different opinions. I have the same opinions. A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered. 从 AI 做一些基础 autocomplete、也许写 5%、10%、15%、20% 的代码，变成写 80% 的代码。 DHH：或者 100%。主持人：或者 100%，是的，尤其当它不是面向公众的产品时。 DHH：对我来说，这就是为什么即使回头看我们一年前的对话，我其实并没有不同的观点。我还是那些观点。一年前，我不喜欢当时提供的那种 AI 模式。那是 autocomplete 模式，或者 AI chatbot 模式。

It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode. Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about. Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code. But- ... then we get the agents. chatbot 我其实是喜欢的，我们当时也谈过。从一开始就是很好的导师，是在网上查东西的好方式，但不是要取代我亲手凿代码的东西。但——… …然后我们迎来了 agents。

And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, "Oh my God, is this AGI?" And all of that happened since last year, even just within the last nine months. We have basically these few phases here. We have AI in the pre-agentic era. I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me. It was not completely changing how I worked. 而这些 agents 一开始大约有五分钟只是新鲜玩意，然后它们变得惊人，然后变成“我的天，这是 AGI 吗？ ”而这一切都发生在去年之后，甚至就在过去九个月里。我们基本上经历了这几个阶段。我们有 pre-agentic 时代的 AI。那时我对此感到兴奋，但它并没有从根本上改写对我而言的游戏规则。

I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick- ... who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way. It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn't change the emotional connection I had to the computer. Then we get to November 24th, 2025. Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenly... I didn't even try it on the 24th. 它没有彻底改变我的工作方式。我仍然在亲手凿代码，只是多了一个小帮手、一个小搭档——… …可以跟它碰撞想法，可以更高效地在网上查信息，诸如此类。它只是把我已经在做的事做得更高效，并没有改变我与计算机之间的情感连接。然后到了 2025 年 11 月 24 日。对我来说，Opus 4.5 是分界线，突然之间… …我甚至没有在 24 号试用。

I think I tried it on the 26th. I give it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would've written. And I remember just leaning back and thinking, "What just happened?" "How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later? 我想我是 26 号试的。我给了它几个任务，然后意识到输出的质量已经近乎诡异地接近我会写出的东西。我记得自己往后一靠，心想：“刚才发生了什么？ ” “我们怎么从夏天我跟你谈的那种 autocomplete 一团糟，短短几个月后就到了这里？

How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?" This agent harness question where I don't know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different. 我们怎么同时得到了智力的提升，又得到了可用性的提升？ ”这个 agent harness 的问题在于，我不知道 Opus 4.5 是否比我们夏天用的 Opus 4 聪明那么多，但它操作你的计算机、使用工具、检查自己的工作、把智力用到能真正做出有意义工作的那种能力，完全不同。

And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break. This is what I heard- ... from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before. 我认为，对几乎所有在圣诞假期里留意并开始试用的人来说，这就是那场大变化。这是我听到的——。 … …来自 Shopify 以及其他有大量员工的地方：人们突然有了喘息空间，突然有几周可以往后靠一靠，看看正在发生什么，试了一下，然后有了同样令人炸裂的体验：这些 agents 属于和以前完全不同的品类。然后我们到了。这个阶段：我那时已经很兴奋了。

And then what we get to is, I'm already excited at this point. Like, by December, I'm already revisiting sort of all my priors- ... and going like, "Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?" "Oh, yeah, it can." And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model. And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you've reached something... I remember thinking at the moment, "If this is the last model we get, I'll be set. I'll be happy." 比如到了十二月，我已经在。重新审视自己所有的先验——… …然后想：“哇，如果它能做这个，那它也能做那个吗？ ” “哦，是的，能。 ”而且现在再看，Opus 4.5 已经像一个弱智模型。这就是这种进步的魔力：你以为已经到了某个程度… …我记得当时心想：“如果这是我们拿到的最后一个模型，我也够用了。我会很高兴。 ”

I could live with Opus 4.5 for the next 20 years- ... and you would hear no complaints from me because it was just so incredibly amazing to see an agent do all this work in the way that I wanted it done. Because it was not just about it being able to solve a task, it was also that I could look at its path there and go, "Yep. Yep. Maybe not there, but almost," and it would give you two notes. You'll get to where I wanted to go in the way I wanted to go there. 我可以和 Opus 4.5 一起过接下来的 20 年——… …你不会听到我任何抱怨，因为看到一个 agent 按我想要的方式完成所有这些工作，实在太惊人了。因为这不仅是它能完成一个任务，还在于我可以看它走到那里的路径，然后说：“对。对。也许那里不行，但几乎就是。 ”它会给你两点提示。你会走到我想去的地方，而且是按我想走的那条路。

You could produce code I wanted to merge. You could produce code that actually looked beautiful if it was written in Ruby. Rust, different question. But this ability for the agents to truly become an extension of how I wanted to work was very novel. But then we wait just until early spring, and suddenly we get sub-agents. 你可以产出我想 merge 的代码。如果是用 Ruby 写的，你甚至可以产出看起来真正美丽的代码。 Rust，那是另一个问题。但这种让 agents 真正成为我想要的工作方式之延伸的能力，非常新颖。然后我们只等到初春，突然就有了 sub-agents。

We get harnesses that can subdivide the task, and something that would take Opus quite a while suddenly took a fifth of the time, a tenth of the time, because it could get chopped up and suddenly you got eight sub-agents working for you. But both of those two first phases of the agentic age, to me, still felt like I had to drive. 我们有了能把任务拆开的 harnesses，一件本来要让 Opus 花很长时间的事，突然变成五分之一、十分之一的时间，因为它可以被切开，突然有八个 sub-agents 在为你工作。

I could tell it what I wanted, where to look for it, and steer it a little bit when it went off, and then we'll get there, and I would go much faster. But I had to be in the driver's seat. I had to tell it what I wanted, and I had to be the reviewer, the auditor of what was coming out. 但对 agentic 时代的前两个阶段，对我来说仍然感觉必须由我来开。我可以告诉它我想要什么、去哪里找，它偏了的时候稍微掌一下舵，然后我们就会到，而且我会快得多。但我必须坐在驾驶座上。我必须告诉它我想要什么，我必须当 reviewer、当产出物的 auditor。

And then finally now, this summer, with Opus 5, Fable, and Sol, GPT Sol, and to a lesser extent, some of the open weight models, we've arrived at a new era where I'm not telling it where we're going. I'm telling it the problem I have. I'm telling it the fuzzy, vague idea I have. It tells me where we're going. 然后终于到了今年夏天，有了 Opus 5、Fable，还有 Sol，GPT Sol，以及在较小程度上一些 open weight models，我们进入了一个新时代：我不再告诉它我们要去哪里。

It tells me which path to take, and I will still look at it because I'm a curious person and I like computers and I like the outcome of it,but I really kinda don't have to. I've become optional in the part that produces the code that picks the route. Remember when early GPS systems came out? They were amazing compared to looking at a map, but you still wanted to pay attention. Is it gonna drive you in the harbor? I remember these newspaper articles. 我告诉它我有什么问题。我告诉它我模糊、含混的想法。它告诉我我们要去哪里。它告诉我该走哪条路，而我仍然会看，因为我是个好奇的人，我喜欢计算机，也喜欢最终结果，但我其实不必看。在产出代码、选择路线的那一部分，我已经变成可选的了。还记得早期 GPS 系统刚出来的时候吗？比起看地图，它们已经很惊人，但你仍然想要留意。

"Ah, GPS, they're terrible because people don't pay attention, they drive in the harbor." When was the last time GPS drove anyone in the harbor? Like, that just doesn't happen anymore. In fact, the cars now just drive themselves, right? And this is where we've arrived at now, that I can trust. For the domain I'm working in right now, I can trust it, and feel completely confident that it's gonna have my back. 它会不会把你开进港口？我记得那些报纸文章。 “啊，GPS 糟透了，因为人们不注意，开进港口里去了。 ”上一次 GPS 把人开进港口是什么时候？那种事已经不会发生了。事实上，现在车自己就会开了，对吧？这就是我们现在到达的地方，我可以信任它。就我现在工作的这个领域而言，我可以信任它，并且完全有信心它会罩着我。

It's not gonna do something stupid, and if it does something stupid, it's gonna be able to recover. - Mm-hmm. We should mention that there's all kinds of domains that- - Correct - ... programmers operate in. There's... 它不会做蠢事，就算做了蠢事，它也能恢复。主持人：嗯。我们应该提到，程序员工作的领域有各种各样——DHH：没错——… …程序员在其中运作。有… …

I actually don't know, but I think the most common domain in development is, like, web dev CRUD. You have a database. You have a user-facing interface, and it does something back and forth, and it could be internal to just one person, to multiple people, to a small number of people, or to the world. 我其实不确定，但我认为开发里最常见的领域是 web 开发 CRUD。你有一个数据库。你有一个面向用户的界面，来来回回做点事，它可以只给一个人内部用，给多个人用，给一小群人用，或给全世界用。

And I think for that, it's-- I mean, you could really get to the 100% of code written by AI and really if you're a good programmer and you have a good intuition about what's happening behind the scenes, you can legitimately not look at the code, at least that's, that's been my experience. 而我认为对这个领域——我是说，你真的可以走到 100% 的代码由 AI 来写，而且如果你是一个好程序员，对幕后发生的事有好的直觉，你完全可以不去看代码，至少这是我的经验。

I don't know how much, prior experience with programming you need to have to kinda know that things are working correctly behind the scenes, like intuitively by observing the ripple effects, the symptoms of the system. But I think for that domain, it's close to 100%, and then there's domains like you're also operating in, which is writing a Linux distribution. There, maybe there's more because you're obsessed with speed and all that kind of stuff. 我不知道你需要多少先前的编程经验，才能凭观察系统的涟漪效应、那些症状，凭直觉知道幕后运行是正确的。但我认为对那个领域，已经接近 100%；然后还有你也在做的那些领域，比如写一个 Linux 发行版。那里也许更多，因为你痴迷于速度之类的东西。

There, maybe you need to look at the code a little bit more. Then there's maybe safety critical systems all the way down to operating a nuclear power plant or a self-driving car. Maybe you need to look at the code more carefully. 那里也许你需要多看一点代码。然后也许还有安全关键系统，一路下去到运营核电站或自动驾驶汽车。也许你需要更仔细地看代码。

- Yes, but that said, AI is insanely capable at both finding- ... and fixing security vulnerabilities. This was the whole blowup about Fable. This model was so capable of finding holes that a an attacker could exploit that it was simply not safe to release. So the irony here is that when you look at that field, it seems like we've reached levels of intelligence that virtually no human can match because many of these security holes are about stringing combo moves together. DHH：是的，但即便如此，AI 在发现——… …以及修复安全漏洞方面，能力强得离谱。这就是围绕 Fable 的那场风波。这个模型发现攻击者可利用漏洞的能力太强，以至于根本没法安全地发布。所以讽刺之处在于，当你看那个领域，似乎我们已经达到了几乎没有人类能匹敌的智力水平，因为很多安全漏洞靠的是把连招串起来。

You find one little vulnerability here that by itself might not be the worst thing in the world, but then you combine it with four others, and suddenly you have RCE, remote command execution. Humans who are able to do that are very rare. They usually work inside state-sponsored organizations or other clandestine operations. They're not just out and about finding things. So they've gotten so good at that. The Linux distribution is why I've gotten 100% AI pilled. 你在这里找到一个小漏洞，它单独看也许不是世界上最糟的事，但你再把它和另外四个组合起来，突然就有了 RCE，远程命令执行。能做到这一点的人非常罕见。他们通常在国家支持的组织或其他秘密行动里工作。他们不是在外面随便找东西。所以它们在这方面已经强到这种程度。 Linux 发行版就是我被 100% AI pilled 的原因。

Because I've been working on Omarchy for the last three months, this version that just dropped a few days ago called Quatro. 因为过去三个月我一直在做 Omarchy，几天前刚发布的这个版本叫 Quatro。

And almost right from the beginning I'm working on that version, the agent acceleration neared 100%, and in the last two months it has been 100%. I have not written- - Really? - ... any of the code that's shipped in Quatro by hand. I've reviewed the shape of all of it. I've reviewed the individual lines of anything that's critical in the model layer of the system, and I've not looked at a bunch of the UI code. 而且几乎从我开始做那个版本起，agent 加速就接近 100%，过去两个月已经是 100%。我没有亲手写过——主持人：真的？ ——… … Quatro 里发出去的任何代码。我审过它整体的形态。我对系统 model 层里任何关键的单独行都审过，而大量 UI 代码我没有看。

I have not looked at a bunch of the auxiliary code, and I've not written any of the new functionality entirely by hand. But then the web part, actually evolving Basecamp and Hey, our professional products that have lots of users and are relatively large code bases, have proven surprisingly tricky to fully accelerate with agents. We just released Basecamp 5 not too long ago. That was the first product at 37signals that was really agent accelerated. 大量辅助代码我没有看，新功能也没有任何一部分完全由我亲手写。但 web 这一块，真正去演进 Basecamp 和 Hey，我们那些有大量用户、代码库也相对庞大的专业产品，用 agents 做充分加速却出人意料地棘手。我们不久前刚发布了 Basecamp 5。那是 37signals 第一款真正被 agent 加速的产品。

Because we were in this final sprint phase from around February. By then, agents were already good. And we had this early surge of, "It's solved. We can just have the designers do the programming. They know what features they want. They know what shape they want it to take. Let's just-- Let them vibe." And we let them vibe. 因为我们大约从二月开始进入最后冲刺阶段。那时 agents 已经很好了。我们有过一阵早期高潮：“解决了。我们可以让设计师来做编程。他们知道自己想要什么功能。他们知道想要它呈现什么形态。那就让他们 vibe 吧。

And we ended up with a lot of PRs that individually perhaps could have been justified for a hot moment, taken all together, destroyed the architecture of the system. And we actually had to clean up manually, mop it up by hand, by human hand, to get back to an architecture that felt cohesive and coherent. So we still have a bit of that-- that was February, by the way. Things are quite different now. - Well, hold on a second. What's the lesson from that? ”我们让他们 vibe 了。结果我们拿到大量 PRs，单独看也许一时还能说得过去，合在一起却毁掉了系统的架构。我们实际上不得不手动清理，用人手擦干净，才能回到一种有凝聚力和连贯性的架构。所以我们仍然还有一点那种——顺便说，那是二月。现在情况已经很不一样了。主持人：等一下。

Is one of the lessons from that that you have to be a programmer at this stage to be able to vibe code? - To be able to vibe code on existing substantial - I see. - ... code bases, even if they're crud, if you wanna retain the element of architecture that got that system to where it was. 从中得到的教训是什么？其中一个教训是，在这个阶段，你必须是程序员才能 vibe code 吗？ DHH：才能在已有的、体量可观的——主持人：明白了。 ——… …代码库上 vibe code，哪怕它们是 CRUD，如果你还想保住把那个系统带到今天的那份架构。

Now, that's also a point where I've stressed many times that when people accuse vibe coders of being slob generators, I go right back at them and say, "Have you looked at the average programmer's output?" That is some other slob too. If you've looked at behind the scenes of many great companies and what their code bases look like after there's been 3,000 humans through them, they're awful. Absolutely awful. - Can you tell me the intuition you have? 这也是我多次强调过的一点：当人们指责 vibe coder 是 slop 制造机时，我会直接回击：“你看过普通程序员的产出吗？ ”那同样是另一摊 slop。如果你看过许多伟大公司的幕后，看过三千个人经手之后的代码库，它们糟透了。绝对糟透了。主持人：你能告诉我你的直觉吗？

I seem to just, stepping back and observing the different apps that we all rely on, I don't know, Adobe Photoshop, all this kind of stuff. There seems to be the progress on development there has not accelerated. So why is it, what lessons can you draw from Basecamp, like well-established, huge user base? Why aren't we seeing, like, super rapid increase in, like, new updates, features, all this kind of stuff in these well-established apps? 我退后一步，观察我们都依赖的那些不同应用，我不知道，Adobe Photoshop 这类东西。那里的开发进展似乎并没有加速。所以为什么，你能从 Basecamp 这种用户基数巨大、已经很成熟的产品里抽出什么教训？为什么我们没有在这些成熟应用里看到新更新、新功能之类的超级快速增长？

- Multiple reasons. I'll start with the first one that's the most critical. As soon as you're having human teams work together on something, the bottleneck is rarely implementation. It's human bandwidth and communication. When you have a product manager and a couple of designers and a VP above them and a CTO above them, and everyone wants to be part of the shaping process because we're all justifying why we're here,that's where all the productivity goes to die. DHH：原因有很多。我先说最关键的第一个。一旦有人类团队一起做一件事，瓶颈很少是实现。而是人类带宽和沟通。当你有一个产品经理、几个设计师、上面还有一个 VP、再上面还有一个 CTO，每个人都想参与 shaping 过程，因为我们都在证明自己为什么在这里，生产力就是在那里死掉的。

The revelation I've had working on Omarchy the last three months is that to get that magical 10X, 100X, in a few rare cases, 1000X productivity boost, you have to interact with the agents directly, and you cannot intermediate that bandwidth with another human because it's simply too slow. And on the one hand, that's a bit of a bummer. I mean, I like humans, and it's great to work together. 过去三个月做 Omarchy 给我的启示是：要得到那种神奇的 10 倍、100 倍，在少数情况下 1000 倍的生产力提升，你必须直接和 agents 互动，不能用另一个人来中介那条。带宽，因为那简直太慢了。一方面，这有点扫兴。

But it also means we need to temper our expectations with what these agents can do if it's humans driving it, and you have three layers of approval and all the other machinery of a large corporation. The implementation part is only a small segment of it. The other thing I'd say is that most organizations don't know what they want. They don't know how to make it better. They're not bottlenecked on implementation. They're bottlenecked on ideas. They're bottlenecked on vision. 我是说，我喜欢人类，一起工作也很好。但这也意味着，如果是人类在驱动，而且你有三层审批以及大公司里其他所有机制，我们对这些 agents 能做什么的预期必须降温。实现部分只是其中一小段。另一点我想说的是，大多数组织并不知道自己想要什么。他们不知道怎样把它做得更好。他们的瓶颈不是实现。他们的瓶颈是想法。

They're bottlenecked on taste. And if you don't have those element in excess of your implementational capacity,it doesn't help. So you can make a lot of shitty ideas come true, then what? Are you gonna ship that? That sounds like, I don't know, something coming out of Microsoft. That's not what we're trying to replicate here. That process is not actually... Because we already had this. 他们的瓶颈是愿景。他们的瓶颈是品位。如果你没有这些要素超出你的实现能力，那也帮不上忙。所以你可以让很多糟糕想法成真，然后呢？你要把它发出去吗？那听起来像，我不知道，像 Microsoft 会做出来的东西。那不是我们想复制的。那个过程其实并不…

If you step back for a moment and think of the towering organizations we have who have had tens of thousands of programmers at their disposal. …因为我们已经有过这个。你退后一步，想想那些高耸的组织，他们手里有过数以万计的程序员。

I mean, I'm picking on Microsoft here. I love Microsoft some of the time, but I'll pick on them in this case because they have had endless resources, endless programming capacity for decades, right? This is what's showing us that just being able to write a lot of code does not produce great compelling software. Now, the other thing is we've had this capacity for about six months. That's not very long in human life cycle capacity of internalizing what's going on. 我是说，我这里拿 Microsoft 开刀。我有时喜欢 Microsoft，但这次我拿他们说事，因为他们几十年来有过无穷的资源、无穷的编程产能，对吧？这就向我们表明，仅仅能写出大量代码，并不会产生伟大、有吸引力的软件。另一点是，我们拥有这种产能大约才六个月。这在人类生命周期里、在把正在发生的事内化进去的能力上，并不长。

And I think it's actually funny that the critique of AI is, why isn't it going faster? What are you talking about? We've not had any other form of progress that has moved as fast as AI, and you're impatient because in the last three months we haven't rewritten the whole world and made it a utopia of software goodness? - You're basically saying everybody should be switching to Linux now. 我觉得很有意思的是，对 AI 的批评居然是：为什么它不快一点？你在说什么？我们从未有过任何其他形式的进步像 AI 移动得这么快，而你却不耐烦，因为过去三个月我们还没有重写整个世界、把它变成软件美好的乌托邦？主持人：你基本上是在说现在每个人都该切到 Linux。

One of the arguments is, like, we can rewrite all the software that's not available in Linux in Linux. 其中一个论点是，我们可以把 Linux 上没有的所有软件都在 Linux 上重写。

Linux has been the love of my life for many years, but one of the reasons I'm still attached to Windows and now, uh, Mac is because of video editing, Premiere. - We're gonna fix that. But- - So the question is, who's gonna build Premiere and Photoshop for Linux? And it feels like one person can now. - 100% one person can. - And so, and I'm allowed to be impatient. In fact, me or anyone else,impatience is the first step of doing it yourself, right? Linux 多年来都是我的挚爱，但我仍然黏着 Windows，现在还有 Mac，其中一个原因是视频剪辑，Premiere。 DHH：我们会修好这个。但是——主持人：所以问题是，谁来为 Linux 做 Premiere 和 Photoshop？感觉现在一个人就能做。 DHH：100%，一个人就能。主持人：所以，而且我被允许不耐烦。

Like- - Correct. - ... and there's a community of tens of thousands of people that use Adobe Premiere or DaVinci, all these non-linear video editors, that know the frustrations. Everybody shares them. You can look at Reddit. You can look at the forums. Everybody knows it. Uh, I don't know what it is. It may be the management. It may be the meetings. 事实上，我或其他任何人，不耐烦是你自己动手的第一步，对吧？就像——DHH：没错。 ——… …而且有一个几万人的社区在用 Adobe Premiere 或 DaVinci，所有这些非线性视频编辑器，他们知道那些挫败。每个人都在分享。你可以看 Reddit。

All the things you've always discussed is the, The bureaucracy that's inside companies that's slowing everything down in the development of features. But it feels like there-- if you just let some of the developers loose with a bunch of agents, you can fix all that. 你可以看论坛。每个人都知道。我不知道那是什么。也许是管理。也许是会议。你一直在谈的那些，公司内部拖慢功能开发的一切官僚。但感觉是——如果你只是放开一些开发者，配上一堆 agents，你就能把那些都修好。

But again, based on everything you're saying, maybe the way to do that is to start over from scratch, maybe through open source, or somebody launches a new company that within large companies now it's hard to, to really accelerate into the agentic era by letting developers just build. 但同样，根据你刚才说的一切，也许做法是从头再来，也许通过开源，或者有人创办一家新公司；而在大公司内部，现在很难真正加速进入 agentic 时代，只靠让开发者去构建。

- This is the classic innovator's dilemma. These companies have gotten so good, so established at the old way, and therefore their entire structure, management layers, processes are tuned for a time that no longer exists. But you can't pivot that. These are super tankers. It just doesn't happen. This is why we're finally getting this upset in the technology industry. DHH：这就是经典的创新者窘境。这些公司已经把旧方式做得太好、太稳固，因此它们的整个结构、管理层级、流程都是为已经不存在的时代调好的。但你转不过来。这些是超级油轮。就是不会发生。这就是为什么我们终于在科技行业看到这种颠覆。

For a while, I was very upset about the duopoly between Apple and Google on mobile, because it felt like mobile was the most important computing platform that we had, and I could not see a path to unseat either Google or Apple sitting on top of that, controlling everything, taking their toll booth money. But the game has changed. This is no longer the most important platform. 有一段时间，我对 Apple 和 Google 在移动端的双寡头非常不满，因为当时感觉移动是我们拥有的最重要计算平台，而我看不到任何路径能把坐在上面、控制一切、收过路费的 Google 或 Apple 掀下去。但游戏变了。这已经不再是最重要的平台。

Mobile phones are important, but there's also a lot of other form factors coming, whether it's glasses or it's earpieces or whatever else have you. It's all in play now, but the computing platforms themselves are in play for the first time in probably 40 years, if you look at the desktop. Linux has been around since '91. It's not taken off or taken over on the desktop. It's taken over everything else. 手机仍然重要，但也有很多其他形态因素正在到来，无论是眼镜还是耳机，或其他什么。现在全都在牌桌上，而计算平台本身也四十年来第一次真正重新在牌桌上，如果你看桌面的话。 Linux 从 91 年就有了。它在桌面上没有起飞，也没有接管。它已经接管了其他一切。你桌上的所有设备，冰箱，烤面包机，全都跑 Linux，除了你的计算机。

All the devices you have on your desk, your fridge, your toaster, everything runs Linux, except for your computer. Now, funnily enough, your Android is actually Linux, but wrapped so sufficiently that you can't really recognize it. But now there's an opening, and the opening is exactly as you say it. If there's a piece of software you depended on that bound you to Windows, it is completely within reach for you personally to start rewriting it. 有趣的是，你的 Android 其实就是 Linux，但被包得太彻底，你几乎认不出来。但现在有了一个开口，而这个开口正如你所说。如果有一块软件你依赖它，它把你绑在 Windows 上，你个人完全有能力开始重写它。也许你到不了 100% 覆盖，但这就是关于 Microsoft Office 的老笑话。

And maybe you won't get to 100% coverage, but this is the old joke about Microsoft Office. "I only use 5%." Yeah, well, we all use a different 5%. Well, what if we all just build our own 5%? What if I just took the functionality that I need and just did that? That is a completely different challenge and one agents are incredibly capable of doing right now, today, and I've done it a lot of times over. “我只用 5%。 ”是啊，可我们每个人用的是不同的 5%。那如果我们都只做自己的 5% 呢？如果我只拿我需要的功能，只做那一块呢？那是一个完全不同的挑战，而且是 agents 现在、今天就极其擅长做的，而我已经做过很多次。

So one of the amazing things I've found with the latest agent engaged is I have become a polyglot programmer, something I was absolutely not before. I was a Ruby programmer-- ... first and foremost, and then I dabbled a little bit in Bash-- ... when I had to. And in the last two months, I've written C++. I've written three applications that have shipped in Omarchy Quattro. I wrote a writing app. 所以我发现最新一轮 agent 参与里一件惊人的事是：我变成了一个多语言程序员，而这是我以前绝对不是的。我首先是一个 Ruby 程序员——… …然后在不得不的时候，稍微碰一点 Bash。 ——而过去两个月，我写过 C++。我写了三个已经随 Omarchy Quattro 发出的应用。

I was using this app called Typora, which is a very nice app- - Great, great app - ... which in itself is based on another app called iA Writer, which was my real love on the Mac- ... for a clean, simple Markdown writing environment. That's where I write all my essays. And then I moved to Linux, and I couldn't get iA Writer,so I moved over to this other tool called Typora. It was a piece of shareware, and it had a lot of features I just didn't need. 我写了一个写作应用。我当时在用一个叫 Typora 的应用，那是一个非常好的应用——主持人：很棒，很棒的应用——… …它本身又基于另一个叫 iA Writer 的应用，那是我在 Mac 上真正的挚爱——… …一个干净、简单的 Markdown 写作环境。我所有文章都在那里写。然后我搬到 Linux，拿不到 iA Writer，于是改用了另一个叫 Typora 的工具。

And about six weeks, seven weeks ago, I thought, "Do you know what? I only need 5% of Typora," which is already a basic app. I literally told the agent to get going, that I wanted it written in C++ and Qt, because that would fit well with the aesthetic of what I was building with Quattro. And in, I think, about 20 minutes, it had the first version. I started using it, and it wasn't quite right. 它是共享软件，有很多我根本不需要的功能。大约六周、七周前，我想：“你知道吗？我只需要 Typora 的 5%，而它本身已经是个基础应用。 ”我直接让 agent 开工，说我想用 C++ 和 Qt 来写，因为那会很契合我在 Quattro 上做的审美。

Within two days, I'd given up Typora, and I wrote and have written all of my essays since that moment in Omawrite. - Can I ask for your advice and your vision about something? So what I find with agents, you can actually write something like a replacement for Typora that is perfectly customized to you, to your needs- - Correct with just one user in mind. And then there's a version of that that is- starts with one user in mind but expands to a larger audience. 我想大约 20 分钟，它就有了第一版。我开始用它，还不太对。两天之内，我已经放弃了 Typora，从那一刻起，我所有文章都在 Omawrite 里写，而且一直写到现在。主持人：我能请教你对一件事的建议和愿景吗？我发现用 agents，你真的可以写出像 Typora 替代品这样的东西，并且完全按你、按你的需求定制—— DHH：没错，心里只有一个用户。

So I've actually written a large number of software just for me, and I find it easier to do and better to get my situation done. For example, I have a video editor I've written, which is very easy to do just for me. - I've never, unlike you, built something that's used by a large number of people, and I find that a bit scary and intimidating. 然后还有一个版本是——从只有一个用户出发，但扩展到更大的受众。所以我其实写过大量只给自己用的软件，我发现这样做更容易，也更能把我的情况搞定。比如，我写过一个视频编辑器，只给自己用就很容易。

So, like, at this, with this agentic age, how do you take a step to actually build something that solves your problem, which I think is a beautiful way to build, but also expand it to actually useful for other people? Like, is there advice you can give, and do you also see the problem of how easy it is to just build a tool for yourself? - Yes, but it is simpler than you think. 主持人：我不像你，从未做过被大量人使用的东西，我觉得那有点吓人、有点令人生畏。所以，在这个 agentic 时代，你怎样迈出那一步，既做出解决你自己问题的东西——我认为这是一种很美的构建方式——又把它扩展成对其他人也真正有用？

By the time you're done building the tool for yourself, you simply tell your agent to put it on GitHub. You don't even have to do anything else. It will figure out how to put that repo on GitHub. It'll write a nice README. It'll start using GitHub releases so that you can track things. 你有什么建议，你是否也看到了只给自己做工具有多么容易这个问题？ DHH：是的，但这比你想的更简单。等你做完给自己用的工具，你只需告诉你的 agent 把它放到 GitHub 上。

It'll actually be a better software maintainer than you could ever be- ... because it is far more patient, it is far more diligent in doing the drudgery of managing open source software than you are. And you can simply get on with the joy of using the software that you built and evolving it as you see fit. Now, this gets into the big argument we've been having in open source for a while. Is AI contributions good or bad for the maintainer? 你甚至不必再做别的。它会自己搞清楚怎样把那个 repo 放到 GitHub 上。它会写一份漂亮的 README。它会开始用 GitHub releases，好让你可以跟踪东西。它实际上会是一个比你更好的软件维护者——… …因为它远更有耐心，在管理开源软件的苦差事上远更勤勉。而你可以只管继续享受使用你做出的软件、并按你认为合适的方式演进它的乐趣。

There's a lot of maintainers right now who are quite upset about the fact that they're suddenly getting a huge influx of pull requests, of contributions from people who may not be the best programmers or programmers at all- ... towards their software. I look at that argument and go, "Are you kidding me?" Here is a vein of free contributions that you can take or don't take, but you're complaining about the fact that they're there? 这就进入我们在开源里争论了一段时间的那个大问题。 AI 贡献对维护者是好是坏？现在有很多维护者相当不满，因为他们突然涌入大量 pull requests，来自可能不是最好的程序员、甚至根本不是程序员的人的贡献——… …冲向他们的软件。我看着那场争论，心想：“你在开玩笑吗？

It sounds straight out of- My steak is too juicy and my lobster too buttery. What are you complaining about? This is the most amazing thing. This is what we proclamated for so long was going to be the magic of open source, that we could all contribute to it, but it was, of course, never true. There was only a small subset of people who contribute to open source, and that was the very highly skilled wizards. So this is a bit of a reformation moment. ”这里有一条免费贡献的矿脉，你可以拿也可以不拿，而你却在抱怨它们的存在？这听起来完全像——我的牛排太多汁、龙虾黄油太多了。你在抱怨什么？这是最惊人的事。这就是我们鼓吹了那么久、说将会是开源魔力的东西：我们都能贡献，但那当然从来不是真的。只有一小部分人真正为开源做贡献，而且是那些技能极高的巫师。所以这有点像一次宗教改革时刻。

We had this disintermediation between us and the computer, and it was this class of clerics and priests called programmers, and suddenly they're being disintermediated here by was it the 95 theses by Luther in 1500s, nailing them to the door? And one of those was very clearly about the intermediation, that you should have direct access to the higher intelligence. - Mm-hmm. But don't you need the wizards to keep a high bar of excellence in the code base? 我们曾经在自己和计算机之间有过中介，那是一群被称为程序员的神职人员和祭司，而突然他们正在被去中介化，这是不是路德在 1500 年代把九十五条论纲钉在门上？其中一条非常清楚地关于中介：你应该能直接接触更高的智力。主持人：嗯。但你难道不需要那些巫师来维持代码库的高卓越标准吗？

- 100% you do, which is also something that's always been true about open source, which is the second argument that really grinds me. I've been running open source projects for 25 years. I have literally looked at the output of thousands, if not tens of thousands of programmers. I feel like I have the statistical basis to assert that most programmers, they suck. And I don't mean that in the way it sounds. That was why I paused for a hot second here. DHH：100% 需要，而这在开源里也一直是真的。这就是第二个真正让我牙痒的论点。我经营开源项目已经 25 年。我真的看过成千上万、甚至数以万计程序员的产出。我觉得我有统计学基础来断言：大多数程序员，他们很烂。我不是按听起来的那种意思说的。所以我在这里停了一下。我的意思是，他们很烂，是指他们写不出我想要被写出来的代码。

I mean, they suck in the sense that they don't write the code I want to have written. They don't prepare their bug reports with all the relevant information. They don't detail their pull requests with the why. They don't bother to fill in needed code comments. They don't double-check their work. They don't write unit tests. They don't do all of these things it takes to create good software. But do you know who'll do all that stuff? Agents, if you tell them to. 他们不会在 bug reports 里准备好所有相关信息。他们不会在 pull requests 里写清楚为什么。他们懒得补上该有的代码注释。他们不复查自己的工作。他们不写单元测试。他们不做做出好软件所需的所有这些事。但你知道谁会做这些事吗？ Agents，如果你告诉它们的话。它们非常勤勉地遵循你的指令，大多数时候如此，有时甚至过分。

They're very diligent at following your instructions,most of the time, sometimes to a fault. But it actually means that if you take the median programmer and their pull requests towards an average open source project, they're already getting outclassed by agents. I would rather get an agent-written pull request to one of my projects than I'd get one written by a human, and it's not just because the quality's better. It's also because I feel a lot less bad if I just reject it. 但这实际上意味着，如果你拿中位数程序员及其对一个普通开源项目的 pull requests，他们已经被 agents 比下去了。我宁愿收到一份 agent 写的 pull request 到我的项目，也不愿收到一份人写的，而这不仅仅因为质量更好。也因为如果我直接拒绝，我会少很多愧疚。

You didn't even write it, so I can simply look at what your agent wrote on your behalf and go, "Eh, don't want it." That's always been true in open source, and in fact, I think this is one of the problems with open source maintainers. They have way too much ball of neuroticism and anxiety that requires them to look upon any contribution as an obligation on their part to do everything to get that to land in the code base. That's not true at all. 你甚至都没写，所以我可以只看你的 agent 替你写的东西，然后说：“呃，不要。 ”这在开源里一直如此，而事实上，我认为这正是开源维护者的问题之一。他们有太多神经质和焦虑的包袱，让他们把任何贡献都看成自己有义务去尽一切努力把它落进代码库。那完全不是真的。你完全可以说“不”，或者更好，你可以说“不，谢谢。

You can simply say, "No," or even better, you can say, "No, thank you." And if you get into the mode of realizing that your project is allowed to exist and evolve according to your vision, according to your roadmap, it becomes so much easier in the agentic age to decline the contributions you don't want because you don't even inconvenience or hurt the feelings of a human. It's just a clanker, and the clanker won't mind. ”而一旦你进入那种模式，意识到你的项目被允许按你的愿景、按你的路线图存在和演进，在 agentic 时代拒绝你不想要的贡献就容易得多，因为你甚至不会给一个人带来不便，也不会伤害一个人的感情。它只是一个 clanker，而 clanker 不会介意。事实上，clanker 的生产者，那些 labs，喜欢你白白花 tokens。

In fact, the producers of clankers, the labs, love when you spend tokens in vain. They get paid just the same. So, in my opinion, this is the absolute best time to ever have been an open source software maintainer. Not only do we get this wealth of glorious pull requests made by agents with all the boxes ticked, we also get to tap into a creativity of people who did not have access to contribute to a project before. 它们照样拿钱。所以在我看来，这是有史以来做开源软件维护者的最佳时刻。我们不仅得到这批光荣的、由agents 写的、所有框都勾上的 pull requests，还能接上那些以前没有机会向项目贡献的人的创造力。

I've been running the Omarchy project now for a little over a year, and in the last three months working on Quattro, I have merged over 1,000 pull requests. Quite a lot of those pull requests were written by people who were not classical programmers, or were programmers in other domains, not Linux operating system or distribution development. 我经营 Omarchy 项目现在一年多一点，过去三个月做 Quattro，我已经 merge 了超过 1000 个 pull requests。其中相当多是由并非传统程序员的人写的，或者是其他领域的程序员，不是Linux 操作系统或发行版开发。他们因为 agents 而能够贡献自己的好想法，而我得以从中精选最好的那些——…

They were able to contribute their good ideas because of agents, and I got to cherry-pick the very best of that- ... because it was there. Otherwise, those ideas would just have lived inside their heads. Again, Is- that is not the purpose of open source, that we tap into the collective intelligence and creativity of the whole goddamn planet, and we channel that towards a commons where we all benefit from the combined efforts of everyone. …因为它们就在那里。否则那些想法只会活在他们脑子里。再说一次，这——那不正是开源的目的吗：我们接上整个该死的星球的集体智力和创造力，并把它们导向一块公地，让所有人从每个人的合力中受益。现在，我想 Omarchy 上大约有 400 个未 merge 的 pull requests，大约是一周前的两倍。

Now, there's currently, I think, about 400 unmerged pull requests on Omarchy, about double what it was a week ago. So the acceleration is real, but so are the tools. I'm not reviewing every pull request anymore. I haven't been reviewing them for quite some time now. I have the agents- ... review them for me- ... and then they will give me a summary about whether something is ready for the decision, the human decision. Should we merge or should we not merge? 所以加速是真的，工具也是真的。我不再审每一个 pull request。我已经有相当一段时间不审了。我让 agents——… …替我审——… …然后它们会给我一份摘要，说明某件事是否已经准备好交给那个决定，那个必须由人做的决定。我们该 merge 还是不该 merge？

I don't need to look at all the pull requests that are either wrong, duplicated, bad. An agent can sort that chaff away from me. I just get to look at the pearls- ... the good ideas that are ready to go, the bug fixes that the agent has validated in a VM on my behalf. 我不需要看那些错误的、重复的、糟糕的 pull requests。一个 agent 可以把那些糠帮我筛掉。我只需看珍珠——… …那些已经可以走的好想法，那些 agent 已经在 VM 里替我验证过的 bug 修复。

All the drudgery of replicating and managing open source projects is evaporating at lightning speed, and we are left with the, with the golden juicy parts, the bone marrow of software development- ... deciding what should this thing do and where should it go. - Do you think the good ideas, ultimately the kernel of the good ideas originated in the human mind, so the individual contributors Like, can it be done by agents, or is the PR ultimately requires a human idea? 复制和管理开源项目的所有苦差事正在以闪电般的速度蒸发，剩下的是那些黄金多汁的部分，软件开发的骨髓——… …决定这东西该做什么、该往哪里去。主持人：你认为好想法，最终好想法的内核，是源于人的头脑吗，所以那些个体贡献者。比如，这能由 agents 来做吗，还是 PR 最终需要一个人类想法？

Like how to improve Omarchy, all those incoming... Or can it all just be a pool of agents? - That was the mode and the way I was thinking about agents in the first agentic age from November 24 to February 28. I thought all the ideas would originate with the humans. They would tell their agents what to build, and off they went. I don't think that's true anymore at all. 比如怎样改进 Omarchy，那些涌进来的… …还是它可以全是一池 agents？ DHH：那是我对 agents 的模式，也是我在第一个 agentic 时代、从 11 月 24 日到 2 月 28 日的想法。我以为所有想法都会源于人类。

I have seen things you people wouldn't believe, ideas coming out of models so great that it makes me humble- ... as a person who otherwise prides himself on having good ideas. 他们会告诉他们的 agents 去构建什么，然后它们就出发了。我现在完全不这么认为了。我见过你们这些人不会相信的事，从 models 里涌出来的想法好到让我谦卑——…

The agents are incredibly capable of creative thought,and folks who are still stuck in the analysis that agents are parrots- ... just regurgitating the ideas that are already there are delusional about the progress that's been made in the last six to nine months. - So some people listening to you right now will say DHH is suffering from the old case of AI psychosis. …而我这个人平时还为自己有好想法而自豪。 Agents 在创造性思考上能力极强，而那些仍然卡在“agents 是鹦鹉”这种分析里的人——… …只是在反刍已经存在的想法——对过去六到九个月取得的进展是有错觉的。

Can you steel man the case that you are in fact experiencing in a state of delusion, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and can you argue against it? - I'm in a state of delirium. That's what the state I'm in. Because I have been working with computers for 40 years, and I've never seen the things that I've seen in just the last two months. 主持人：所以现在听你说话的一些人会说，DHH 正在犯那种老毛病：AI psychosis。你能尽量有力地替对方辩护：你其实正处于一种妄想状态，像《飞越疯人院》那样，然后再反驳它吗？ DHH：我处于一种谵妄状态。

A whole career, a whole life dedicating to the love of computers as my main focus for the working hours and then some, suddenly completely upended, suddenly completely rewritten. Of course I'm delirious. Who looking at this reality is not? If you are not delirious or at the very least very excited... Actually, I guess that's not even true. If you're not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that's the delusion. That's the psychosis. 那就是我现在的状态。因为我跟计算机打交道 40 年了，却从未见过我在过去两个月里见到的那些事。整整一个职业生涯，整整一生把对计算机的热爱当作工作时间的主要焦点，甚至还不止，突然被彻底掀翻，突然被彻底改写。我当然谵妄。看着这种现实的人，谁不谵妄？如果你不谵妄，或者至少非常兴奋… …其实，我想那甚至都不对。如果你还认不出这一刻的分量，那才是错觉。

The psychosis is believing that the world is barely different. We just have some electronic parrots reciting things to us. Now, in my opinion, the reason this argument is actually brought up is because people are not able to see the fruits of the progress. That goes to your point earlier. Where is the amazing software? Why isn't American GDP running at 12% year over year? First of all, give it a minute. It hasn't even been a year, goddammit. 那才是精神病。精神病是相信世界几乎没有不同。我们只是有一些电子鹦鹉在对我们背诵东西。现在，在我看来，这个论点之所以被提出，是因为人们看不到进展的果实。这回到你刚才的点。那些惊人的软件在哪里？为什么美国 GDP 没有以每年 12% 在跑？首先，给它一点时间。连一年都还没有，该死的。

But second of all, I feel on my own account, I have actually brought the pudding. Omarchy Quattro launched on Friday. It's been downloaded by tens of thousands of people. And they like it. They like it a lot. - We should mention that going to Perplexity here, Omarchy is a highly opinionated Arch Linux-based desktop distribution centered on the Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor. 但其次，就我自己而言，我觉得我其实已经把布丁端上来了。 Omarchy Quattro 周五发布。已经有几万人下载。而且他们喜欢它。他们非常喜欢。主持人：我们应该提一下，我这边查 Perplexity：Omarchy 是一个高度有主见的、基于 Arch Linux 的桌面发行版，以 Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor 为中心。

It was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, DHH, as a polished developer workstation set up with a cohesive visual style and many everyday tools already configured. - Let me put it. Omarchy is a beautiful, modern, and opinionated Linux system. It's an alternative operating system to macOS and Windows, and it's freaking amazing. - And the Quattro thing is you're pushing towards the age of agents. - That's right. 它由 David Heinemeier Hansson，DHH，创建，作为一套打磨过的开发者工作站配置，有统一的视觉风格，许多日常工具已经配好。 DHH：让我这样说。 Omarchy 是一个美丽、现代、有主见的 Linux 系统。它是 macOS 和 Windows 的另一种操作系统，而且他妈的惊人。主持人：而 Quattro 这件事，是你在推向 agents 的时代。

That's the latest version that we just dropped out, which is also funny. DHH：没错。那就是我们刚放出的最新版本，这也很好笑。

The Omarchy project is only a year old and a little bit. I started it last summer in between sessions at the 24 Hours of Le Mans- ... where I had watched one too many YouTube videos on Linux Rising and got bitten by that bug. Started working on this second iteration of my attempt at creating a better Linux operating system. The first iteration we talked about last time was called Omakub, was built on top of an existing system called Ubuntu, and it was fine. Omarchy 项目才一年多一点。我去年夏天在勒芒 24 小时耐力赛的场次间隙开始做它——… …我看了太多 Linux Rising 的 YouTube 视频，被那只虫子咬到了。开始做我第二次尝试，想创造一个更好的 Linux 操作系统。我们上次谈到的第一次迭代叫 Omakub，建立在一个现有系统Ubuntu 之上，它还行。

But the ambition I was able to pour into the new version, Omarchy, because I started seven layers deeper down the stack, was completely different, but it was still done in a pre-agentic world. I wrote all those batch scripts by hand in the beginning, and then I got to see the midway point where things changed over. 但我能灌注进新版本 Omarchy 的野心完全不同，因为我从栈里再往下走了七层；不过那仍然是在 pre-agentic 世界里完成的。一开始那些 Bash 脚本全是我亲手写的，然后我看到了中途那个转折点。

I did a couple of versions of Omarchy that had partial agent acceleration, and then three months ago, it was full throttle, 100%, everything is written by agents but steered by me. And that just ended up being a very different experience and a very different operating system because I was suddenly granted a limitless ceiling on my ambition. I could look at any feature in Windows, on Mac, on other Linux systems and say, "I want that," and the agents would deliver. 我做过几个部分有 agent加速的 Omarchy 版本，然后三个月前，全油门，100%，一切都由 agents 写，但由我来掌舵。那最终变成一种非常不同的体验，也是一个非常不同的操作系统，因为我突然被赋予了野心的无限天花板。我可以看着 Windows、Mac、其他 Linux 系统上的任何功能，说：“我想要那个”，然后 agents 就会交付。

So everything I wanted was suddenly within reach, which meant that I got a little delirious. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, "You can have whatever you want. Every feature you've ever dreamed of in an operating system- ... I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it's gonna take me two hours." 所以我想要的一切突然都够得着了，这意味着我有点谵妄。如果突然有一个精灵从瓶子里跳出来，对你说：“你想要什么都行。你梦想过的操作系统里每一个功能——… …我都能给你，大多数只要五分钟，少数要二十分钟，如果我们真的放开手脚，最多两个小时。 ”谁会不谵妄？

- Mm-hmm. Have you seen Requiem for a Dream, the movie? So the, There's a drug-like effect here. I find it personally-- We'll talk about many levels of this, but it is overwhelming how much power is placed in our hands so suddenly, and it's very hard to know, it's like with "The Hobbit" or something, what to do with it, and I find myself truly overwhelmed with the multitasking,On the verge of almost burnt out. 主持人：嗯。你看过电影《梦之安魂曲》吗？所以，这里有一种类似毒品的效应。我个人发现——我们会在很多层面上谈这个，但突然之间被放进我们手里的力量是压倒性的，而且很难知道，就像《霍比特人》之类的，该拿它怎么办，而我发现自己真的被多任务压垮，几乎到了快 burnout 的边缘。

Super excited about so many things, but ultimately looking back, you want to focus on one thing and really ship - I don't have that sense. I don't have the sense of overwhelm. I don't have the sense of dread. I don't have the sense of distortion because I have a mission. I'm going somewhere, and therefore, I can channel all this new power towards- - Yeah, it's wonderful - ... a singular goal and outcome, creating the perfect computer. 对太多事超级兴奋，但最终回头看，你想专注一件事并真正发出去——DHH：我没有那种感觉。我没有被压垮的感觉。我没有恐惧的感觉。我没有扭曲的感觉，因为我有一个使命。我正往某个地方去，因此我可以把所有这些新力量导向——主持人：是啊，这太棒了DHH：——一个单一目标和结果：创造完美的计算机。

And therefore, all my investigations with AI are focused towards that end. Now, I also have a day job. And we also use agents there, and that's also targeted towards sort of specific outcomes. But with the Omarchy experience, I got to tap in straight in the back of my head and increase the bandwidth between ideas arriving in my brain and software emerging on the screen. It was like going from dial-up- ... to fiber. 因此我对 AI 的所有探索都指向那个终点。现在，我也有一份日常工作。我们在那里也用 agents，那也指向某种具体结果。但有了 Omarchy 这段经历，我得以直接接到后脑勺，把想法进入大脑和软件出现在屏幕之间的带宽加大。就像从拨号——… …升到光纤。我想在你的 podcast 上，Elon 谈过实际的人类带宽——…

I think on your podcast, Elon talked about the actual human bandwidth- ... that Neuralink and other projects are trying to accelerate. Like, the bandwidth we're communicating over right now is quite low because we're limited by our cognition. We're limited by the rate of speech. You're not limited by those things when you're working with a swarm of agents. … Neuralink 和其他项目正在试图加速的那种。比如我们现在交流所用的带宽相当低，因为我们受限于认知。我们受限于说话的速率。当你和一群 agents 一起工作时，你不受那些限制。现在让我加一句限定：如果九个月前我听到自己这样说话——…

Now, let me caveat this by saying, if I'd heard myself talk like this- ... nine months ago, I would probably have used the label AI, AI psychosis. I think it would be fitting because nine months ago when people were talking like this, they weren't shipping,and I think that's the ultimate difference, that there were people who saw this early. I was not actually that early. …我大概会给它贴上 AI、AI psychosis 的标签。我觉得那会很贴切，因为九个月前人们这样说话时，他们并没有在发出东西，而我认为那才是最终的差别：有些人很早就看见了这个。我其实并没有那么早。正如我们谈过的，我相当怀疑，我也在某些方面用 AI，但我不是第一个下载 Claude Code 的人。

As we've talked about, I was rather skeptical, and I was using AI in certain ways, but I was not the first person who downloaded Claude Code. I think Boris released that in end of February. I don't think I installed Claude Code until September. So there was about six months there where pioneers saw these glimmers of what the future was gonna look like. It wasn't there yet because the intelligence wasn't there. The harnesses weren't there, but they could see the glimmers. 我想 Boris 是二月底发布的。我想我直到九月才装 Claude Code。所以大约有六个月，先驱者看见了未来会是什么样子的微光。它当时还不在那里，因为智力还不在。 harnesses 还不在，但他们能看见微光。

I couldn't. Tobi, Tobi Lütke, the CEO of Shopify and now my partner in crime on this Omarchy project in part, he's gotten pilled with Omarchy as well. He saw these things very early, and he tried to tell me, and I wasn't seeing it. I was not seeing what he was seeing. - You were a hater. 我看不见。 Tobi，Tobi Lütke，Shopify 的 CEO，现在也是我在这个 Omarchy 项目上的部分同伙，他也对 Omarchy 上了瘾。他很早就看见了这些，他试图告诉我，而我看不见。我看不见他看见的东西。主持人：你当时是个黑粉。

- Yes. I was still on Earth. And he was... He had already boarded the rocket and was heading towards space. I remember actually reading his memo to the company, the AI memo, and thinking, "Ah, seems a little much." Like, you're making a big deal out of something that I cannot yet feel is a tangible thing. Because where's the output of this? I try using it. It writes code I don't like. DHH：是的。我还在地球上。而他已经……他已经登上火箭，正往太空去。我其实记得读过他给公司的那份备忘录，那份 AI memo，心想：“啊，好像有点过了。”就像，你把一件我还感觉不到是有形之物的事情说得太大了。因为产出在哪里？我试着用它。它写出我不喜欢的代码。

It wants to interrupt me all the time. Where are you getting this from? Uh, so I get it. I totally get it. If you've not seen what the current quality of intelligence can produce, of course you're gonna look at someone and go like, "They sound a little nutty," because all your experience up until this point would tell you that they are nutty. 它老是想打断我。你这些从哪来的？呃，所以我理解。我完全理解。如果你还没见过当前这种智力质量能产出什么，你当然会看着某个人，觉得：“他们听起来有点疯，”因为直到这一刻为止你的全部经验都会告诉你他们是疯的。

Because if you look at the history of computer programming, for the last 40,50 years, people have been promising that regular people could write code just by talking. We're gonna have fourth generation languages. Lisp was once upon a time presented, Smalltalk was presented as these environments that would let regular people write their own applications, and none of it came true in the sense beyond, like, Microsoft Access databases or Excel spreadsheets. 因为如果你看计算机编程的历史，过去 40、50 年里，人们一直承诺普通人只要说话就能写代码。我们会有第四代语言。 Lisp 曾被这样介绍，Smalltalk 也曾被介绍成能让普通人写自己应用的环境，而那些都没有在超出 Microsoft Access 数据库或 Excel 表格的意义上成真。

That, those are end user programming environments, but it's nothing like what we're able to do now. And then, I mean, I'm not even talking about end user. I'm talking as me, someone who's been programming for 25 years, seeing the output and the acceleration and the quality and then shipping it, and I think that's what's gonna change the entire conversation quite quickly. 那些是终端用户编程环境，但完全不像我们现在能做的事。然后，我是说，我甚至不是在谈终端用户。我是在谈我自己，一个编了 25 年程的人，看到产出、加速和质量，然后把它发出去，而我认为这将很快彻底改变整个对话。

The few laggards who are still on the fence about whether this is actually useful, who are still trapped in a meme from early '25 about mechanical parrots,they're simply going to be overwhelmed by the evidence that's about to flood over them. - So I hope to see, projects like Omarchy, several of them that, like, really show agent first. - It's coming. 少数仍然在围栏上、还在犹豫这是否真的有用、仍然困在 2025 年初那种机械鹦鹉迷因里的落后者，他们很快就会被即将淹没他们的证据压垮。主持人：所以我希望看到像 Omarchy 这样的项目，有好几个，真正展示 agent first。 DHH：它会来的。这一切都会来。

All of it is coming. - In the spaces, in the silly spaces that I already mentioned, like video editing, all these kinds of apps that are like Typora- - Yes. - ... this kind of stuff. - It's gonna come, and I've already seen the early inklings of this. 主持人：在那些领域里，在我已经提到的那些有点傻的领域里，比如视频剪辑，所有这些像 Typora 这样的应用——DHH：是的。 ——… …这类东西。 DHH：它会来的，而且我已经看到了早期迹象。

One of the really neat features about Omarchy is that it has a far more robust plugin system that allows you to extend your operating system and rewrite it really in terms of its user interface and its panel and its features by creating your own plugins that can be cloned off of tools we ship in the box. For example, say you want a different calendar. Omarchy ships with a calendar. You click the little clock. Omarchy 一个非常漂亮的功能是，它有一套远更稳健的 plugin 系统，让你能扩展操作系统，真正按用户界面、面板和功能去改写它，方法是创建你自己的 plugins，它们可以从我们随系统附带的工具克隆出来。比如，假设你想要一个不同的日历。 Omarchy 自带一个日历。你点那个小时钟。它弹出一个日历，但它没有 iCal 支持，比如。

It pops up a calendar, and it doesn't have iCal support, for example. It doesn't consume your appointments. There's about 17 implementations of that already, and in three days, we had 330 plugins on the Omarchy plugin marketplace. I have never seen growth like that with any project I've ever been involved in. I've never seen participation that broadly. 它不读取你的约会。那种实现已经大约有 17 个，而三天之内，我们在 Omarchy plugin marketplace 上就有了 330 个 plugins。我从未在自己参与过的任何项目里见过那样的增长。我从未见过那么广泛的参与。

I've never seen that many people be able to create software that's meaningful for them- Also be usable for others so quickly. All of it is driven by the fact that Omarchy ships a set of skills that tells any agent you bring to it how to create extensions to the operating system, and therefore affording you the vision of the true malleable... 我从未见过那么多人能如此快地做出对他们有意义——也对别人可用的软件。这一切都由一个事实驱动：Omarchy 附带一套 skills，告诉你带来的任何 agent 如何为操作系统创建扩展，从而把真正可塑的那种愿景交给你……

I was about to say agentic. I hate that fucking word. And the reason in part I hate that word is, first of all, it's become marketing slob speak- ... at this point. Like, it's just slapped onto everything. 我正要说 agentic。我讨厌那个该死的词。我讨厌它的部分原因是，首先，它此刻已经变成营销 slop 黑话——… …到了这个地步。就像，它被随便贴到一切上面。

I wish we had a different word that just meant AI doing stuff. - Vibe coding feels wrong, too. - It does, because vibe coding to me smells exactly like script kiddies did in the early 2000s. People applying PHP scripts they just downloaded offline they don't understand anything of. 我希望我们有另一个词，只表示 AI 在做事。主持人：vibe coding 也感觉不对。 DHH：确实不对，因为对我来说，vibe coding 闻起来就像 2000 年代初的脚本小子。人们拿刚从网下下来的 PHP scripts 去用，自己什么都不懂。

And while, I mean, that's true in the sense that much of the vibe coding, including my own vibe coded projects, and as I just mentioned, I have several. I've written things in C++. I've written things in Rust. I hate Rust with a passion. Rust to me is like pouring acid in my eyes when I have to look at the code. - Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do, why do you hate Rust? 而虽然，我是说，这在某种意义上是真的：很多 vibe coding，包括我自己 vibe coded 的项目，正如我刚提到的，我有好几个。我用 C++ 写过东西。我用 Rust 写过东西。我痛恨 Rust。对我来说，Rust 就像往眼睛里倒酸，只要我必须看那些代码。主持人：等等，等等，等等。

- It is, in my opinion, the ugliest programming language- ... that has been invented- ... in probably the last 40 years. - So it's the opposite of Rails and Ruby. 你为什么恨 Rust？ DHH：在我看来，它是被发明出来的最丑的编程语言——… …大概过去 40 年里。主持人：所以它是 Rails 和 Ruby 的反面。

- It's the opposite. But- - You've written it - ... I've written applications in Rust because the output of Rust is actually amazing. The memory safety, the fact that it's a system language, the fact that it's highly efficient and so forth is incredible. So Rust, to me, can both be the most repugnant programming language ever devised for human consumption and a wonderful platform for agentic engineering. DHH：它是反面。但是——主持人：你却写过它——……我用 Rust 写过应用，因为 Rust 的产出其实惊人。内存安全，它是系统语言，它高度高效等等，这些都不可思议。所以对我来说，Rust 既可以是为人类消费而设计过的最令人厌恶的编程语言，也可以是 agentic engineering 的美妙平台。

These two truths can coexist easily in my head. - Do you think that there can be a point at which we can just call agentic engineering programming? Can we just change what programming means? 'Cause who's actually going to be programming the old-school way in a few months? - I don't think we should reuse the term because for me, programming implies an understanding of certain primitives,loops, conditions, variables. 这两个事实可以很容易在我脑子里共存。主持人：你认为会有一个时刻，我们可以直接把 agentic engineering 叫作 programming 吗？我们能不能直接改变 programming 的含义？因为再过几个月，谁还会用老派方式编程？ DHH：我认为我们不该复用这个词，因为对我来说，programming 意味着对某些原语的理解，循环、条件、变量。

All the constructs of programming languages are what constitutes programming itself, not the creation of programs. Because you could say in the pre-agentic era, well, your CEO is programming. He's hiring a bunch of programmers, he's telling them what to do, and out comes software that he can sell. Eh, I don't think most people would call that CEO a programmer, and I don't think we should call the vibe coder a programmer either. 构成 programming 本身的是编程语言的所有构造，而不是程序的创造。因为你可以说，在 pre-agentic 时代，好吧，你的 CEO 也在 programming。他雇一堆程序员，告诉他们做什么，然后出来他能卖的软件。呃，我想大多数人不会把那个 CEO 叫作 programmer，我认为我们也不该把 vibe coder 叫作 programmer。

And vibe coding, if we define it here, is you tell an agent to build software for you. You do not look at the implementation. That, to me, is what separates vibe coding from programming or, let's say, agent-accelerated development. - But don't you think, so to push back a little bit, don't you think a programmer, old-school programmer, you, doing agentic engineering is a different kind of agentic engineering than a non-programmer doing agentic engineering? 而 vibe coding，如果我们在这里定义它，就是你告诉一个 agent 为你构建软件。你不看实现。对我来说，这就是把 vibe coding 与 programming，或者说 agent-accelerated development 分开的东西。主持人：但你不觉得，所以稍微反驳一下，你不觉得一个 programmer，老派 programmer，你，做 agentic engineering，和一个非 programmer 做 agentic engineering 是不同种类的 agentic engineering 吗？

What I mean is, if you know what a for loop is, if you know what function programming is, if you know some of the basic good principles of software engineering, the way you do natural language-based agentic engineering will be different and more systematic, and this, the scale and the variety of things you can actually build is much bigger than a vibe coder. - I'm just gonna extend the pro case here a little bit just for the sake of the argument. - Right. 我的意思是，如果你知道什么是 for loop，如果你知道什么是函数式编程，如果你知道一些软件工程的基本好原则，你做基于自然语言的 agentic engineering 的方式会不同、更有系统，而你实际能构建的东西的规模和种类，会比一个 vibe coder 大得多。 DHH：我只是为了论证，把正方再延伸一点。主持人：好。

- I actually think for a while it was to my deficit to know as much as I know about programming because I was instructing the agents to do things as I prescribed them to do, and they were very good at that. And in the first agentic moment, let's not call it an era, it was something that lasted three months. Moment. In the first agentic moment, that felt very productive. DHH：我其实认为有一段时间，我对编程知道得那么多反而是我的劣势，因为我在按我规定的方式指示 agents 做事，而它们非常擅长那样做。而在第一个 agentic 时刻，我们别叫它一个时代，那是持续了三个月的东西。时刻。在第一个 agentic 时刻，那感觉非常有生产力。

I could get more productivity out of telling the agents what to do in the way I would've done it, and I used all of my experience as a programmer to do just that. Then I was a little late on the next moment, and the next moment allowed me, allowed anyone, to describe outcomes- ... to describe problems to the agents and get better solutions than if you had a programmer prescribe the path. - See, okay, so we're having fun arguing here. 我可以通过按我会做的方式告诉 agents 做什么，从中得到更多生产力，而我用上了作为 programmer 的全部经验来做这件事。然后我对下一个时刻来得有点晚，而下一个时刻让我、让任何人，能够描述结果——… …向 agents 描述问题，并得到比你让一个 programmer 规定路径更好的解决方案。

Well so are you suggesting that there's problems for which programmers are worse than non-programmers at agentic engineering? - 100%. And the reason I say that, let's define it here. The reason I say that is there's a lot of programmers who are not very good product managers. Software is product management. What should it do? Who should it do it for? How should it do it? How should it look? What are our priorities? What do we start with first? What does version one include? 主持人：看，好，我们在这里争得很开心。所以你是在说，有些问题，programmers 做 agentic engineering 会比非 programmers 更差？ DHH：100%。而我这样说的原因，让我们在这里定义一下。我这样说的原因是，很多 programmers 并不是很好的产品经理。软件就是产品管理。它该做什么？为谁做？该怎么做？该长什么样？

All of those skills are not easily or equally distributed across all programmers. And in the agentic era where you are letting an agent, an AI, do the implementation, these are the skills you need. And I happen to sit in both camps, and this is why I love this moment. I still get to live a little bit in the old world where I look at the full implementation because there are domains and areas where I feel that still brings value, and then I also live in the future. 我们的优先级是什么？我们先从什么开始？第一版包含什么？所有这些技能并没有轻易或均等地分布在所有 programmers 身上。而在 agentic 时代，你让一个 agent、一个 AI 去做实现，这些才是你需要的技能。而我恰好同时站在两个阵营，这就是我热爱这个时刻的原因。我仍然能在旧世界里活一点点，去看完整实现，因为有些领域和区域我仍然觉得那有价值，然后我也活在未来。

And as I said, when I created Omawrite, I've not looked at a single line of that C++. I actually made it a point to myself that I was gonna treat it as an experiment. This is 100% a black box. I will treat it as though I was any other user who had opinions about how their digital typewriter should work, and therefore felt like it was a fair experiment as if a writer of any other sort who had opinions about how software should be done and how it should work. 正如我说的，当我做 Omawrite 时，我一行 C++ 都没看过。我其实特意把它当成一个实验。这是 100% 的黑箱。我会把它当成我只是任何其他用户，对自己的数字打字机该怎么工作有意见，因此感觉这是一个公平的实验，就像任何其他类型的写作者，对软件该怎么做、该怎么工作有意见。

As you mentioned, video editors who know exactly where they don't like what Adobe Premiere's doing and how it could be better, but don't have the capacities to improve it- ... how that could be. - The pushback, though, I think what programmers do well, good programmers do well, is systematic design, like think in terms of systems- - Correct - ... and rigor. - Yes. - And I think still, and probably for a long time to come, even natural language-based control of agentic systems will require a certain kind of rigor. 正如你提到的，视频剪辑师确切知道自己不喜欢 Adobe Premiere 在做什么、怎样可以更好，却没有能力去改进它——… …那会是怎样。主持人：不过反驳是，我认为 programmers 擅长的、好的 programmers 擅长的，。是系统性设计，比如用系统来思考——DHH：没错——… …以及严谨。 DHH：是的。主持人：而且我认为仍然，也许在很长一段时间里，即便是基于自然语言的对 agentic 系统的控制，也会需要某种严谨。

Not overly structured rigor, but really explain very specifically the goals of the system, how to do the verification, what kind of security testing. You wanna do all those kinds of things. Although then to push back on that, the system will... should be smart longer term. - I would've said the same thing six months ago. - Yeah, so this has changed. - And I think the same thing would've been true six months ago. 不是过度结构化的严谨，而是非常具体地解释系统的目标、怎样做验证、怎样做安全测试。你想做所有那些事。不过然后再反驳这一点，系统会… …长期来看应该会更聪明。 DHH：六个月前我会说同样的话。主持人：是啊，所以这已经变了。 DHH：而且我认为六个月前那也会是对的。

What I have found since, especially even just the last few weeks of the agentically accelerated development of Mach-E, is that more often than not, I have the humility to recognize that the agent knows best. - You can legitimately say, "Make sure it's secure." 从那以后我发现，尤其甚至只是最近几周 Mach-E 这种被 agent 加速的开发，更多时候我有那种谦卑去承认：agent 更懂。主持人：你完全可以说：“确保它是安全的。 ”

- Correct. And it would know more about what that entails. Now, you're laughing- - What a crazy world - ... but it's true. And in fact- - Oh my God - ... a good parallel to this is the AGENTS MD/CLAUDE MD files. There was a hot moment where it was all the rage about micro- optimizing that. Oh, you tell your agent this- ... you tell your agent that, and you ended up with this huge file of instructions for your agent. DHH：没错。而且它会更知道那意味着什么。现在，你在笑——主持人：多么疯狂的世界——… …但这是真的。而且事实上——主持人：我的天——… …一个很好的平行是 AGENTS.md / CLAUDE.md 文件。有那么一阵热潮，全都在微优化那个。哦，你告诉你的 agent 这个——…

One of the things that Boris, working on Claude Code, shared in an interview recently about Opus 5 was that the system prompt that they ship for Opus 5, and presumably also Fable, shrunk by 80% because the agent not only needed far less human instruction, it was actually being damaged by overly prescriptive humans. And any programmer who's had a pointy-haired boss knows exactly what that is like. …你告诉你的 agent 那个，最后你得到一个巨大的指令文件给你的 agent。 Boris 在做 Claude Code 时，最近一次访谈里谈到 Opus 5 的一件事是：他们为 Opus 5 附带的 system prompt，大概也包括 Fable，缩小了 80%，因为 agent 不仅远更少需要人类指令，过度规定的人类实际上还在伤害它。

When the boss walks into the room, doesn't know anything, starts telling you how to program, how to code. What do you do? You sulk. You write shittier code if you're mandated to do things that are against your better judgment. Why would an agent not be the same? 而任何有过尖头发老板的 programmer 都完全知道那是什么感觉。当老板走进房间，什么都不懂，开始告诉你该怎么 program、该怎么写代码。

- Actually, to push back against myself, I do find the actual skill I'm currently developing, which I along those lines is probably what everybody's trying to develop, is not to overspecify things, is to get out of the system's way. - Of course. - Is to specify enough to provide a kinda high-level vision and guidance. - It's even better because you don't even need that. The fundamental insight of modern software development came from the agile software development movement. 你怎么办？你生闷气。如果你被强制去做违背自己更好判断的事，你会写出更烂的代码。为什么一个 agent 不会一样？主持人：其实，反过来反驳我自己，我发现我目前正在培养的真正技能，沿着这条线，大概也是每个人都在试图培养的，是不要过度规定事情，是让开，别挡着系统。 DHH：当然。主持人：是规定得足够，提供一种高层愿景和引导。 DHH：甚至更好，因为你连那个都不需要。

In the late '90s, early 2000s, a group of smart, honest, and brave people came together and said, "The way we've been trying to do software development for the last 40 to 50 years has not worked, will not work. We've been trying to specify upfront what software should look like. 现代软件开发的根本洞见来自 agile 软件开发运动。在 90 年代末、2000 年代初，一群聪明、诚实、勇敢的人聚在一起说：“我们过去40 到 50 年试图做软件开发的方式没有奏效，也不会奏效。

We thought that we could ask humans what they wanted, write it all down, apply our systems thinking and our rigor to a spec sheet, hand that spec sheet over to a group of programmers who would then implement just that, and everyone would be happy." Well, guess what? No one was happy. Because no one knows what they want until they receive it. You don't know what a program should do until you play with it. 我们一直试图事先规定软件该长什么样。我们以为可以问人类他们想要什么，全部写下来，把我们的系统思维和严谨用到一份规格表上，把那份规格表交给一群 programmers，然后他们就按那个实现，每个人都会高兴。 ”结果呢？没人高兴。因为没人知道自己想要什么，直到他们拿到它。

So in the agentic age, you should resist the temptation to be overly specific upfront. Be as vague as you can to manifest something, then interact with the something. The way you arrive at good software is you write a little bit of software, and then you try to use it. It is in the process of using software that you discover what you really want. 你不知道一个程序该做什么，直到你去玩它。所以在 agentic 时代，你应该抵抗事先过度具体的诱惑。尽可能含混，好让某样东西显现出来，然后去和那东西互动。到达好软件的方式是：你写一点点软件，然后试着去用它。正是在使用软件的过程中，你发现自己真正想要什么。

It's where you discover what's important and what's not important. And agents are incredible at allowing you to bumble into this experience of realizing what you want because you don't know what you want. - Mm-hmm. And I've actually done something similar to what you suggested, which is implement different designs and totally different implementations, and then I create HTML pages for myself, PHP pages, where I vote on what I like more and so on. 你在那里发现什么重要、什么不重要。而 agents 极其擅长让你跌跌撞撞走进这种意识到自己想要什么的体验，因为你并不知道自己想要什么。主持人：嗯。而且我其实做过类似你建议的事，就是实现不同的设计、完全不同的实现，然后我给自己做 HTML 页面、PHP 页面，在上面投票我更喜欢哪个，诸如此类。

And it does this iterative thing, and it's very nice and fun. The interaction with the agentic system, if you create a nice interface for yourself, it can be super fun, and you're focusing on the design part and the most fun parts of the design part. - Correct. And this is what humans are really good at. - Yeah, taste. - Differential evaluation. You give me three options, I pick one of them. Now, humans actually fall off a cliff if you give them 22 options. 而它就做这种迭代的事，非常好、非常有趣。与 agentic 系统的互动，如果你给自己做一个漂亮的界面，可以超级有趣，而你专注于设计部分，以及设计部分里最有趣的那些。 DHH：没错。而这正是人类真正擅长的。主持人：是啊，品位。 DHH：差异评估。你给我三个选项，我挑其中一个。人类如果拿到 22 个选项，其实会掉下悬崖。

That's the paradox of choice. But you give them three options, they very quickly within a split second will tell you what they like. 那就是选择悖论。但你给他们三个选项，他们会在一瞬间很快告诉你他们喜欢什么。

There are all these ways that exploit the fact that humans will make these snap judgments that are actually pre-intellectual, right? Like, they're coming from the gut, and then they arrive up in the, in the brain, and the brain tries to rationalize why the gut said what it said. And if you're willing to let go of some of that intellectual pre-processing rationalization and simply let your gut drive, the agentic age is a revelation. 有各种各样的方式利用这个事实：人类会做出这些其实是前智力的瞬时判断，对吧？就像，它们来自直觉，然后到达大脑，大脑试图合理化直觉为什么那样说。而如果你愿意放下一部分那种智力上的预处理合理化，只让直觉来开，agentic 时代就是一次启示。

- So this is a fascinating thing to ask you because you have sort of famously for a long time talked about, like, detailed chiseling of beautiful Rails Ruby code, and now you have switched in a matter of months to not doing that. So, like, what is your current setup look like? 'Cause you're, I assume, are still looking for the beauty, for the chiseling, for the crafting, but you're just crafting in a different medium. 主持人：所以这是一件特别有意思、要问你的事，因为你相当出名地谈了很长时间，比如细致地凿出美丽的 Rails Ruby 代码，而现在你在几个月里就切走了，不再那样做。所以，你现在的 setup 是什么样？因为我假设你仍然在寻找那种美、那种凿刻、那种手艺，只是你在另一种媒介里手作。

- And at different levels of abstraction. When I'm working in Ruby code, and we have a lot of Ruby code because it's in our entire business, and I'm asking agents to make changes to that code, I still sweat the details. What I'm coming to realize is that the economic payoff of that sweat is diminishing rapidly. DHH：而且在不同的抽象层次上。当我在 Ruby 代码里工作，而我们有大量 Ruby 代码，因为它贯穿我们整个业务，我让 agents 去改那些代码时，我仍然为细节流汗。我逐渐意识到的是，那种流汗的经济回报正在迅速递减。

The reason why I, for 25 years, was sweating every line of code so judiciously was because I knew the payoff of keeping an architecture coherent and malleable was software that could change and evolve- quickly with a small team, and not exorbitant cost, and not introducing a bunch of bugs when you change one thing over the other. 我之所以 25 年来如此审慎地为每一行代码流汗，是。因为我知道，保持架构连贯、可塑，回报是软件能够快速变化和演进——用一个小团队，成本不高昂，也不会在你改一件事时引入一堆 bugs。

That was the driving economic argument for why you should write beautiful code, 'cause beautiful code is easier to understand, it is simpler, it is more malleable. That was premised on humans doing the modifications. I think it is an open question to which degree this still matters. Now, it does matter, and the reason I say that, at least for the moment, is that tokens are still scarce. At this moment in time, we are all token limited. 那就是你为什么该写美丽代码的驱动性经济论证，因为美丽代码更容易理解，它更简单，它。更可塑。那是以人类来做修改为前提的。我认为，这在多大程度上仍然重要，是一个开放问题。现在，它确实重要，而我这样说的原因，至少就此刻而言，是 tokens 仍然稀缺。在此刻，我们都受 tokens 限制。好吧，不是所有人，但任何没有无穷预算的人都受 tokens限制。

Well, not all, but anyone who doesn't have endless budgets are token limited. So therefore, there is great payoff to writing systems that agents have an easier time dealing with and evolving without having to relearn the entire context. Just like humans, if they can make iterations and changes to the code base without wrecking the architecture, they can make the next change just as cheaply as the last one. 因此，写出 agents 更容易处理、演进时不必重新学习全部 context 的系统，有巨大回报。就像人类一样，如果他们能在不毁掉架构的情况下对代码库做迭代和修改，下一次改动就会和上一次一样便宜。而这就是经典的泥球，你最终得到一个泥球系统—— …

And this is the classic ball of mud where you end up with a system that's a ball of mud- ... because it's just put together in a way where nothing is connected and it's just a real mess, right? I've seen that with agents, and I've seen it in our own code bases where, again, the first PR is, like, mediocre of quality, and then if you add another PR on top of that, and then five more down the line, it's not very good, right? …因为它只是被拼在一起，什么都没连上，就是一团真正的乱，对吧？我在 agents 身上见过这个，也在我们自己的代码库里见过：同样，第一个 PR 质量算中等，然后你再在上面加一个 PR，再往下五个，就不太好了，对吧？所以那仍然有回报，但那个回报是以我们此刻为前提的。

So there's still a payoff to that, but that payoff is premised on our current moment. I am now able to... And this is, by the way, where the AI psychosis really comes in, when you try to extrapolate what nine months from now it's gonna look like. What two years from now it's gonna look like. But as an intellectual experiment, I think the first computer I used was a Commodore 64. - Me too. Cool. - It had one megahertz CPU and 64K of memory. 我现在已经能够… …顺便说，这正是 AI psychosis 真正进来的地方，当你试图外推九个月后会是什么样。两年后会是什么样。但作为一个智力实验，我想我用过的第一台计算机是 Commodore 64。主持人：我也是。酷。 DHH：它有 1 兆赫的 CPU 和 64K 内存。每个为那台机器写软件的人都内化了某些约束。

Everyone who wrote software for that machine internalized certain constraints. Well, all the constraints. That machine was nothing but constraints. If you put that programmer in a time machine and teleported him or her to 2026 and gave them a modern computer today and said, "Now write me a piece of software," they'd be lost for a little bit because all their techniques and all their heuristics would simply be wrong. Or not wrong, because efficient software is still beautiful. 嗯，所有约束。那台机器除了约束什么都没有。如果你把那个 programmer 放进时光机，传送到 2026，给他一台今天的现代计算机，说：“现在给我写一份软件，”他们会迷茫一阵子，因为他们所有的技术和所有启发式都会是错的。或者说不是错，因为高效软件仍然美丽。它们会与自己能创造的价值脱节。

They would be out of date with the value that they could create. The amount of optimization you have to apply for a one megahertz computer to produce a video game is just very different from what you have to apply today. - Just imagine that guy that was programming back then on a Commodore. Just re- remember all those, like what programming felt like and what it meant, highly constrained resources- ... how slow everything is. - Beautiful in many ways. 你必须为一台 1 兆赫计算机做出的优化量，才能做出一个电子游戏，和你今天必须做的，就是非常不同。主持人：想象那个当年在 Commodore 上编程的人。再记起那些，编程当时是什么感觉、意味着什么，高度受限的资源——… …一切都那么慢。 DHH：在很多方面是美的。美。主持人：那是凿刻。但是——DHH：它——主持人：…

Beautiful. - It's chiseling. But- - It- - ... imagine that person coming now. - It's romantic too, though. Let's also imagine that. This is one of the things, whenever we bemoan modern car culture, for example, right? And then we think like, "Oh, wasn't it better when we all had the horse-drawn carriages and so on?" No, it wasn't. Do you know what New York smelled like when we used horses for transportation? It was an open sewer. …想象那个人现在过来。 DHH：不过也很浪漫。我们也想象一下那个。这是其中一件事，每当我们哀叹现代汽车文化，对吧？然后我们会想：“哦，我们都坐马车的时候不是更好吗？ ”不，不是。你知道我们用马做交通时，纽约闻起来是什么样吗？那是一条露天下水道。它们到处拉屎。主持人：是啊，但你玩过 Red Dead Redemption 吗？

They just shat everywhere. - Yeah, but have you played Red Dead Redemption? You know how cool those cowboys were- - That is the way- - ... on the horse? - ... to experience the nostalgic past, when you don't get the all the furry impulses and senses. 你知道那些牛仔有多酷——DHH：那才是——主持人：… …骑在马上？ DHH：… …体验那种怀旧过去的方式，当你得不到那些毛茸茸的冲动和感官时。

- So basically programming, old school programming by hand is kinda like the cowboy culture that we romanticize and make movies about. - It's already happening, the romanticization of handwritten code. And I have some of it because it was a very romantic era. I'm grateful to have been alive for 20 years of economically valuable handwritten code. That was a, that was a good time. - Where handwritten beautiful code was also valuable. 主持人：所以基本上，编程，老派亲手编程，有点像我们浪漫化、拍成电影的牛仔文化。DHH：已经在发生了，对手写代码的浪漫化。而我也有一些，因为那是一个非常浪漫的时代。我感激自己活过了 20 年经济上有价值的手写代码。那是，那是一段好时光。主持人：那时手写的美丽代码也是有价值的。

- Correct. Because handwritten beautiful code exists as much today as it did yesterday. There are people who willfully write new video games for the Commodore 64, or for the second Mega Drive, or for other vintage consoles. In fact, one of my favorite video games of late is ModRetro's. Do you know Palmer Luckey's- ... side geschäft, which is recreating old consoles. So he's recreated the Game Boy. DHH：没错。因为手写的美丽代码今天和昨天一样存在。有人故意为 Commodore 64、为第二台 Mega Drive、或其他老式主机写新电子游戏。事实上，我最近最喜欢的电子游戏之一是 ModRetro 的。你知道 Palmer Luckey 的——……副业 geschäft 吗，它在复刻老主机。所以他复刻了 Game Boy。

- Nice. - It's amazing. Look it up. It's really cool. But what's even cooler than the fact that he recreated this hardware and the original chunkiness, but brought it up to date with sort of modern screens and so on, now they just put out the Nintendo 64 too. Incredible. Super cool. Wild attention to detail, input lag, and all the other things. But what's also very cool, that one, I have to wave. 主持人：很棒。 DHH：它惊人。去查一下。真的很酷。但比他复刻了这套硬件和原来的厚实感、同时又用现代屏幕之类的东西把它带到今天更酷的是，他们刚刚也推出了 Nintendo 64。不可思议。超级酷。对细节、input lag 和所有其他东西有疯狂的关注。但也很酷的是，那个，我得挥一下。

That one right there, and hover over it, 'cause then you get to see what I'm talking about. 就是那边那个，把鼠标悬上去，因为那样你就能看到我在说什么。

That is the Chromatic- ... Tetris re-implementation. - Wow. - I played a lot of Tetris on the original Game Boy. Probably one of my top three favorite games of all time. And they rewrote it with one change. If you hit up, the brick slams. And that speeds up the game by about 400%. It is an incredible game, and it's a new Game Boy game. 那是 Chromatic——……Tetris 的重新实现。主持人：哇。DHH：我在原版 Game Boy 上玩过很多 Tetris。大概是我有史以来最喜欢的三款游戏之一。而他们重写了它，只改了一处。如果你按上，砖块会砸下去。这让游戏速度大约加快了 400%。它是一款不可思议的游戏，而且是一款新的 Game Boy 游戏。

I think the Game Boy came out in- '89 or '88. It's a very old machine. The fact that there's still people writing new old games is awesome, and the reason they do it in part, now here they're doing it because they want Tetris, but there are people who do it just for the love of the constraints, for the love of the romantic notion of writing that. 我想 Game Boy 是 89 年或 88 年出来的。那是一台非常老的机器。仍然有人在写新的老游戏，这太棒了，而他们这样做的部分原因，现在这里他们做是因为他们想要 Tetris，但也有人做只是出于对约束的爱，出于写那个的浪漫观念。

Just like there are people still riding around on horses, not to get places fast, but because they like the mode of transportation where it's a literal biological being below you propelling you forward. - And also, we should say that that beautiful code is great training data. So in some sense, the beauty that we've built over a few decades- - Yes - ... continues. - We gave birth to this moment. 就像仍然有人骑马四处走，不是为了快点到达，而是因为他们喜欢那种交通方式：你下面就是一个真正的生物，把你往前推。主持人：而且我们也应该说，那些美丽代码是很好的训练数据。所以在某种意义上，我们几十年来建起的那种美——DHH：是的——… …还在继续。 DHH：我们把这一刻生了出来。

What a privilege, and I feel that very personally because I... Almost all of the code I've ever written is public code. The vast majority of my career has been dedicated to writing open source code, and therefore, some of that code, some of those beautiful lines are in the training set. And in fact, I've heard people do this when they write Ruby code. 多么特权，而我对此感觉非常个人，因为我… …我写过的几乎所有代码都是公开代码。我职业生涯的绝大多数时间都献给了写开源代码，因此，其中一些代码，那些美丽的行，在训练集里。而且事实上，我听说人们写 Ruby 代码时会这样做。

They ask the agent, "Write it like DHH would." And they're pleased with the result, and that does warm my heart a little bit, that I helped give birth to this moment in my tiny little small part. 他们让 agent：“像 DHH 会写的那样写。 ”他们对此结果感到满意，而这确实让我心里暖了一点，我以自己那一小份帮助生出了这一刻。

And anyone else who contributed open source code or any code at all that the agents have had access to over the last, well, entire time programming has been around as a discipline, is now part of these new agent overlords. - So you don't have a little bit of sadness that writing beautiful code by hand is now less and less useful? 而任何其他贡献过开源代码、或任何 agents 能够接触到的代码的人，在过去，嗯，编程作为一门学科存在的全部时间里，现在都成了这些新 agent 霸主的一部分。主持人：所以你对手写美丽代码现在越来越不那么有用，没有一点点悲伤吗？

- Am I sad that if I had to get a job tomorrow, it's unlikely that I could apply my skills in such a way that I would be paid to write these manual lines of code? No. DHH：我悲伤吗，如果我明天必须找一份工作，不太可能以这样的方式应用我的技能，让人付钱让我去写这些手动代码行？不。

I did it for 25 years. Like, I wanna see something new here, especially if we're all gonna live forever, which I hope we don't. Maybe we'll get to that. But, like, I've done that. That's enough. That's fine. I don't feel any more nostalgic about that than I do about the fact that I don't have to spend my time in the field with a hoe or at the assembly line. - Well, hold on a second. 我做了 25 年。就像，我想在这里看到新东西，尤其如果我们都会永远活下去，而我希望我们不会。也许我们会谈到那个。但是，就像，我做过那个了。那就够了。那很好。我对那个并不比对我不必再拿着锄头在田里、或在流水线上花时间更怀旧。

You are one of the best programmers in the world at writing handcrafted beautiful code, appreciators of beauty with great taste. - Correct. 主持人：等一下。你是世界上最擅长亲手写出美丽代码的程序员之一，是美的鉴赏者，有很好的品位。 DHH：没错。

- That has been replaced. - I say humbly. - Yeah. That has been replaced. Like, you had now... You're just fast evolving, and you're able to... One of your really great qualities is you're able to change your mind and evolve very quickly. But, like, you had to kill that other person. - I am grateful for every moment that brought me to where I am right now, and therefore, I have also tried, and maybe this did take some practice. I will concede that. 主持人：那已经被取代了。 DHH：我谦虚地说。主持人：是啊。那已经被取代了。就像，你现在… …你只是在快速演进，而且你能够… …你一个真正了不起的品质是，你能够很快改变想法并演进。但是，就像，你必须杀死那另一个人。 DHH：我对把我带到此刻的每一刻都心怀感激，因此，我也试过，也许这确实需要一些练习。

Maybe I wasn't always like this, but stoic philosophy, amor fati, loving your fate, is an incredibly liberating way to live. And you could attack that and say, "Well, that's a point of privilege." True, but also I had the same directional point when I didn't have all this, quote unquote, "privilege." So I think there's a way to live and interact with the world where you accept the things you can change and the things you cannot change and fall in love with all of it. 我会承认这一点。也许我并不一直都是这样，但斯多葛哲学，amor fati，热爱你的命运，是一种极其解放的活法。你可以攻击那一点，说：“那是一种特权立场。 ”没错，但当我还没有所有这些所谓“特权”时，我也有同样方向上的立场。所以我认为有一种与世界相处、互动的方式，是你接受你能改变的事和你不能改变的事，并爱上这一切。

Fall in love with the fact that the world today has jumped two decades forward into technology industry from where it was last year. - So can we talk about the general anxiety that programmers feel, going through the same transformation? 爱上这个事实：今天的世界已经从去年的位置，在科技行业向前跳了二十年。主持人：那我们能谈谈程序员感受到的那种普遍焦虑吗，他们正经历同样的转变？

They've maybe gone to university majored in computer science, dreamed of being programmers and building stuff, high salary, and now everything's changing, and there's deep anxiety about, "What do I do when... with my life?" Can you empathize with that, and what the hell are they supposed to do? - Hugely. Because just because I have this disposition, I'm keenly aware that that's not evenly distributed, that not everyone sits with this position and this optimism for the future. 他们也许上过大学，主修计算机科学，梦想成为程序员、构建东西、拿高薪，而现在一切都在变，并且有深深的焦虑：“我拿… …我的人生怎么办？ ”你能共情这一点吗，他们到底该做什么？ DHH：极度能。因为尽管我有这种性情，我非常清楚那并不是均匀分布的，不是每个人都坐在这个位置上，对未来有这种乐观。

But I do think I wanna separate things a little bit. I think you're gonna have a hard time coping with the new reality if the only thing you loved about programming was the mechanical bits of putting the right logical constructs together to produce something other people told you to produce. Because that mechanical process is under threat. 但我认为我想把事情稍微分开一点。我认为，如果你爱编程的唯一一件事是把正确的逻辑构造拼在一起、去产出别人叫你产出的东西，那种机械部分，那你将很难应对新现实。因为那种机械过程正受到威胁。

If you are, as you just mentioned, excited about building things, I don't think you're under threat at all. In fact, I think there's a great argument for us needing far more builders than what we have now, and if you look at the employment stats, it's fuzzy. It's not clear what's gonna happen at all. Some stats actually show an increase in openings because the advent of AI is so dramatically lowering the price of programs that people want a lot more programs. 如果你像你刚才说的那样，对构建东西感到兴奋，我认为你完全没有受到威胁。事实上，我认为有很强的理由说明我们需要比现在多得多的构建者，而如果你看就业数据，它是模糊的。完全不清楚会发生什么。有些数据实际上显示职位空缺在增加，因为AI 的到来如此剧烈地降低了程序的价格，人们想要多得多的程序。

This is the classic, the Jevons paradox, that says when the price of something goes down, there's gonna be more demand for it. And this is the example of the ATMs too. When the ATM originally came, a lot of bank tellers were very afraid for their job because suddenly there was a machine that could dispense money from people's account. 这就是经典的杰文斯悖论：当某样东西的价格下降，对它的需求会更多。这也是 ATM 的例子。当 ATM 最初出现时，很多银行柜员非常担心自己的工作，因为突然有一台机器能从人们的账户里吐钱。

Well, what the ATMs did was lower the price of a branch, and suddenly banks could afford to open a lot more branches, and we ended up with more bank tellers than we did before. Now, none of this is guaranteed. There are also moments where things do change. The vast majority of people worked in the fields up until the late 1800s, and then suddenly we got mechanized- harvesting tools, and we did not need human labor with a hoe and an ox out there. 结果 ATM 做的是降低了一家网点的价格，银行突然能开多得多的网点，我们最终有了比以前更多的银行柜员。现在，这些都不是保证。也有一些时刻，事情确实会变。直到 1800 年代末，绝大多数人还在田里工作，然后突然我们有了机械化——收割工具，我们不再需要人拿着锄头和一头牛在外面。

We had mechanical tools to do that for us. 我们有机械工具替我们做。

In that moment, are there people who were threatened that their job and their livelihood was at stake? Yes. Was that a reasonable thing to feel threatened about? Yes. The Luddites smashing the weaving machines- ... in England had the same thing. And I think maybe that's the better parallel than people working the fields because these were actually highly skilled professionals doing a job that they liked on rather favorable conditions, not slaving outside in the sun all day. 在那一刻，有人感到自己的工作和生计受到威胁吗？有。那种受威胁的感觉合理吗？合理。在英格兰砸织布机的卢德派——……也是同一件事。而我认为那也许比在田里干活的人是更好的平行，因为他们其实是高技能专业人士，做一份他们喜欢的工作，条件相当不错，不是整天在太阳底下当奴隶。

But where we live now, would we still like for clothing to be this heavily constrained resource? Like, what if this T-shirt was $400? I mean, okay, then I'd have two. Well, my wardrobe probably looks like I have two. But I think the general progress of mankind depends on productivity improvements. And what are productivity improvements? This is very important because in the abstract,I think everyone says, "Yay, productivity. 但就我们现在生活的地方而言，我们还希望衣服是这种高度受限的资源吗？如果这件 T 恤要 400 美元呢？我是说，好吧，那我就有两件。嗯，我的衣柜看起来大概也像只有两件。但我认为人类的总体进步取决于生产力改进。而什么是生产力改进？这非常重要，因为在抽象层面，我想每个人都会说：“好耶，生产力。

That's good." What did you think, this was all just vibes? No. Productivity means fewer people to do the same number or the same job. Now, the amount of job you want done may increase, and therefore you get more people, but it also may not. There may be pockets where a company just needs a certain set of fixed tasks done, and suddenly they can do them with a 10th the number of people. 那是好事。 ”你以为这全是 vibes 吗？不。生产力意味着更少的人去做同样数量或同样的工作。现在，你想完成的工作量可能会增加，因此你会有更多人，但它也可能不会。可能有一些口袋，一家公司只需要完成某一组固定任务，突然他们可以用十分之一的人数来做。

This, by the way, could... is tragic and difficult in the moment for the individual being laid off. It's also amazing for the economy at large. Suddenly you've freed up these resources who can now go do more productive things. This is how the whole economy evolves and improves and how we get growth, and growth is good. I think this is the other thing to make a strong defense for, that growth in general is a good thing. 这，顺便说，对那个被裁掉的个体来说，在那一刻是悲剧而困难的。对整体经济来说也惊人。你突然释放了这些资源，他们现在可以去做更有生产力的事。整个经济就是这样演进和改进的，我们就是这样得到增长，而增长是好的。我认为这是另一件要大力辩护的事：增长在总体上是一件好事。

We do not want to wind the clock back to 1920 or 1950. We should be excited about the fact that we've discovered new technology that allows us to do vastly more. And while some of the tasks that may be taken over by AI were tasks that humans were excited to do, and they're just no longer economically viable, a lot of the tasks were just drudgery. This is certainly true of my programming. There were moments of programming I thought were amazing. 我们不想把时钟拨回 1920 或 1950。我们应该为这个事实感到兴奋：我们发现了新技术，让我们能做多得多的事。而虽然被 AI 接管的一些任务，是人类曾兴奋去做、现在在经济上不再可行的任务，很多任务本来就只是苦差事。这在我的编程里当然是真的。有些编程时刻我认为是惊人的。

These were the moments that produced that state of flow we talked about last time, and they were ecstatic. How often did they happen out of the course of a year? If you took your average programmer, how much time out of 2,000 hours at the job did that person spend in a flow state? 那些就是我们上次谈到的产生心流状态的时刻，它们是狂喜的。它们在一年里发生多少次？如果你拿一个普通 programmer，在工作的 2000 小时里，那个人有多少时间处在心流状态？

100? 200? 25? I think all those answers could be plausible for someone. And taking that drudgery, handing it over to machines, that is the history of civilization. - Yeah, I mean, the hours spent debugging. So programming has so many painful, painful hours in it. And now they're gone. For the... I mean, for the most part, it's just fun. 100？200？25？我想对某个人来说，那些答案都可能说得通。而把那些苦差事交出去给机器，那就是文明的历史。主持人：是啊，我是说，花在 debug 上的那些小时。所以编程里有那么多痛苦、痛苦的小时。而现在它们没了。对……我是说，在很大程度上，它只是有趣。

- A lot of it is gone in a lot of domains, and the rest of it may be gone very soon. So that's where some of the romanticism also comes in ... because pain in the moment is difficult. It's hard. It's annoying. Pain in the rear view mirror is accomplishment, proud, learning, steps forward, all the things, right? DHH：在很多领域里，其中很多已经没了，剩下的也许很快也会没。所以浪漫化也从那里进来… …因为当下的痛苦是困难的。它很难。它烦人。后视镜里的痛苦则是成就、骄傲、学习、向前的步伐，所有这些，对吧？

So we encompass all of this as part of the human experience, that we hate pain in the moment, but we cherish it when it's five minutes past and we don't remember the hardship. We just remember the progress. - So certainly at the societal level, at the macroeconomic level, growth is exciting. But the individual level, there's going to be a lot of anxiety potentially a lot of suffering. 所以我们把这一切都包进人类体验：我们恨当下的痛苦，但五分钟过后我们就珍惜它，我们不记得艰苦。我们只记得进步。主持人：所以当然在社会层面、在宏观经济层面，增长是令人兴奋的。但在个体层面，将会有很多焦虑，潜在地很多痛苦。

So by way of advice, if you're like a young DHH or young developer programmer now, what would you advise they do? 所以作为建议，如果你像一个年轻的 DHH，或现在的年轻开发者、programmer，你会建议他们做什么？

- Don't try to anticipate anything. You will literally go crazy. Because even the smartest brains in the business cannot anticipate what two model hops from here is going to look like. It's an absolute waste of time, and you will develop an AI psychosis trying to deduce what two years from now is gonna look like. Focus on right now, and right now is the most incredible time to be into computers. DHH：不要试图预判任何事。你会真的发疯。因为即便业内最聪明的头脑也无法预判再跳两个模型之后会是什么样。那绝对是浪费时间，而你试图推断两年后会是什么样，就会发展出 AI psychosis。专注于此刻，而此刻是投身计算机最不可思议的时刻。

You can make them do the most amazing things if you lean in. If you maybe for a hot moment force yourself to learn where the state of the art is, I double dog dare you not to get excited about what's possible. - And would you recommend building publicly? - I think it's optional actually to build publicly. I think it's nice to do because then you get to be part of a community, and there's some camaraderie in open source. Not some camaraderie. 如果你靠进去，你可以让它们做最惊人的事。如果你也许强迫自己花那么一阵去学习当前的 state of the art 在哪里，我敢打赌你忍不住会对可能之事感到兴奋。主持人：那你会建议公开地构建吗？ DHH：我认为公开构建其实是可选的。我认为那样做好，因为那样你就能成为社区的一部分，而且开源里有一些同志情谊。

There's an enormous amount of camaraderie. Open source is an incredible source of community and camaraderie, and it's also a great way to stem some of that personal existential dread. If you're amongst other humans, you can get infected with good forms of mind viruses, exciting forms of mind viruses, the ones that tell you that it's all gonna be okay,and the future looks bright, and if we build a bunch of things together, we can do things none of us ever dreamed we could do. 不是一些同志情谊。有极其大量的同志情谊。开源是社区和同志情谊的不可思议来源，也是遏制那种个人存在性恐惧的好方式。如果你和其他人在一起，你会被好的思想病毒感染，令人兴奋的思想病毒，那些告诉你一切都会好的，未来看起来明亮，如果我们一起构建一堆东西，我们能做成谁都不曾梦想能做成的事。

I was just talking to Ryan Hughes, who's been my main partner on Omarchy almost since day one, and we were literally talking about yesterday how when We started on this journey together. Our ambitions were very modest. We're just like, "Can we get this distro to not crash at 3:00 AM because of an Arch package that just got pushed out outside of our control? That would be amazing. Then it'd be great." Now we're leaning back and thinking, "How can we take over the world? 我刚和 Ryan Hughes 谈过，他几乎从第一天起就是我在 Omarchy 上的主要伙伴，我们昨天还真的在谈，当我们一起开始这段旅程时。我们的野心非常谦逊。我们只是想：“我们能不能让这个发行版别在凌晨 3 点崩溃，就因为一个我们控制不了、刚推出来的 Arch package？那就太惊人了。然后就很好了。 ”现在我们往后一靠，想的是：“我们怎样接管世界？

How can we make Omarchy go to Mars? How can we do everything we've ever dreamed of?" And that level of ambition inflation is partly because things have gotten better with agents, but hugely also because we've surrounded ourselves with others excited about the same journey. And if you're just sitting in your little isolated cave worrying about the future, yeah, you're gonna go a little nuts. 我们怎样让 Omarchy 去火星？我们怎样做我们梦想过的一切？ ”而这种野心膨胀，部分是因为有了 agents 之后事情变得更好，但很大程度上也因为我们让自己被其他对同一段旅程感到兴奋的人包围。而如果你只是坐在自己那座孤立的洞穴里担心未来，是的，你会有点疯。

I think if we learned anything during COVID is that people will go nuts sitting in their little cave inside by themselves worrying about what's gonna happen. That is indistinguishable from depression, ruminating endlessly about things you can't control. I'm sorry to channel some Jensen Huang here, but that's just loser talk. You don't have to be a loser. You can choose to lean in and- ... win. 我想如果我们从 COVID 学到了什么，那就是人们会疯，坐在自己那座洞穴里、独自待在室内担心将会发生什么。那和抑郁无法区分，没完没了地反复咀嚼你控制不了的事。抱歉我这里有点在转述 Jensen Huang，但那就是失败者的话。你不必当失败者。你可以选择靠进去并且——…

And win is very broadly defined as learning more, making more, contributing more, being part of more. …赢。而赢的定义非常宽：学得更多，做得更多，贡献更多，参与更多。

And at the end of the day, what are your choices? You don't have a choice, mate. The future's coming whether you like it or not, so you might as well choose to be excited about it. - But I mean, we should emphasize the fact that planning is nearly impossible with AI. I mean, most of us plan our life a little bit. When we're younger, you have, like, hopes and dreams. There's a reason you go to college. 而到头来，你的选择是什么？你没有选择，伙计。无论你喜不喜欢，未来都会来，所以你不妨选择为它感到兴奋。主持人：但我是说，我们应该强调，有了 AI，规划几乎是不可能的。我是说，我们大多数人都会对自己的人生做一点规划。年轻时，你会有希望和梦想。你上大学是有原因的。那下面有一个计划。

There's a plan underlying that. - I agree with that. - But there- - I'll concede that. - ... it is kinda- - This is different. DHH：我同意。主持人：但是——DHH：我承认这一点。 ——… …它确实有点——DHH：这不一样。

- ... nuts that it's impossible to really plan. Because, like, you really don't know, if there will even be a Claude Code, a Codex, and Cursor six months from now. Maybe it'll be you'll be talking to WhatsApp. Maybe it'll be all open call type. Maybe it'll just all be voice. Maybe Omarchy will take over the world and it'll be voice. Maybe there won't be operating systems anymore. 主持人：——疯，真的没法规划。因为，就像，你真的不知道，六个月后是否还会有 Claude Code、Codex 和 Cursor。也许你会对着 WhatsApp 说话。也许全是开放的、打电话那种。也许全都会是语音。也许 Omarchy 会接管世界，然后会是语音。

You'll just... There'll be this glowing orb that just you just talk to because if natural language is enough to accomplish all tasks in life, like, what is life about? Like, what are the major tasks you need to accomplish in life? If you can just do that with voice, and it writes all the programs for you, and all is systematized, and what, what are the jobs needed then? Maybe it's more about the service industry. 也许不再会有操作系统。你只是… …会有这个发光的球体，你只是对着它说话，因为如果自然语言足以完成生活中的所有任务，那生活是关于什么的？你人生需要完成的主要任务是什么？如果你只用语音就能做，它为你写出所有程序，一切都被系统化，那，那时还需要什么工作？

Maybe there won't be programmers, like agentic engineers at all. And so yes, your advice is wise to focus on the moment, but that doesn't mean that it's just a crazy rollercoaster ride, 'cause we don't know what this December or what this January will look like. - We don't know, and therefore, we should choose to have faith that it's gonna pan out. That is my best advice towards fighting anxiety, is that you have a choice, to a large degree, of how to lean. 也许更多是关于服务业。也许不会再有 programmers，比如根本不会有 agentic engineers。所以是的，你的建议很明智，专注于此刻，但那并不意味着这就只是一趟疯狂过山车，因为我们不知道这个十二月或这个一月会是什么样。 DHH：我们不知道，因此，我们应该选择相信它会走出来。那是我对对抗焦虑的最好建议：在很大程度上，你有选择，选择怎样靠。

Do you wanna lean into PDoom? PDoom is gonna happen whether you lean into it or not. You don't have control. - But there's also actual daily schedule of how much learning are you doing, how much building are you doing, how much uh, diversification you're doing. 你想靠进 PDoom 吗？无论你靠不靠进去，PDoom 都会发生。你控制不了。主持人：但也有实际的每日日程：你在学多少，你在构建多少，你在做多少多样化。

And for example, I traveled across rural China recently, and I did it quite deliberately because you're talking to people in China, in,in rural anywhere, where time moves much slower, where there's no discussions about agentic engineering. And the ti- and I started by going on the, on the Great Wall of China. That's timeless. That spans centuries. And, you know, there was, like, this kind of tension of FOMO, like maybe I'm missing out on something. 比如，我最近穿越了中国农村，而且我是相当故意这样做的，因为你在和中国的人说话，在任何地方的农村，时间走得慢得多，那里没有关于 agentic engineering 的讨论。而我——我从去长城开始。那是永恒的。它跨越几个世纪。而且，你知道，有一种 FOMO 的张力，就像也许我错过了什么。

But then I very deliberately wanted to find the timelessness of human existence, really plug into the fact that,okay, it always feels like everything's changing uh, throughout human history but, you know, the universals are still true, of what matters in life. And I just wanted to make su- keep connected to that. - You're not gonna miss anything. This is the part that actually grinded my gears in the early phases of this transition. 但然后我非常故意地想找到人类存在的那种永恒性，真正接入这个事实：好，纵观人类历史，总是感觉一切都在变，但是，你知道，那些普遍之物仍然是真的，关于人生什么才重要。而我只是想确——保持与那个相连。 DHH：你不会错过任何东西。这其实是这场转变早期真正让我牙痒的部分。每个人都那么紧张，如果你没有…

Everyone was so up in arms that if you didn't... It's loops now. Oh, no, no, we're done with loops. It's graphs now. Oh, no, no, we're done with that. It's, it harnesses this, right? They're, they're constantly churning through the frontier, which in one way is actually very exciting. This is what happens when a new field opens up. It's like a new portal, and it's all spilling out. That's exciting. …现在是 loops。哦，不，不，我们做完 loops 了。现在是 graphs。现在。哦，不，不，那个也做完了。是 harnesses 这个，对吧？他们不断地在前沿翻搅，从一种方式看其实非常令人兴奋。这就是一个新领域打开时会发生的事。就像一个新传送门，一切都涌出来。

But it also means that if I had just been backpacking for the last year, hadn't touched a computer, hadn't witnessed this agentic moment, and I just showed up yesterday, do you know what? I would've been caught up in two weeks. 那令人兴奋。但这也意味着，如果过去一年我只是在背包旅行，没碰过计算机，没见证这个 agentic 时刻，我昨天才出现，你知道吗？我两周内就能赶上。

There's not any accumulation, which is in some ways a great relief. If you missed the past year, you can catch up to the frontier in two weeks. If you're a programmer who was out hiking the Himalayas for a year and you come back, you can catch up in two weeks. And this is actually the great credit to the progress we're experiencing. We have so many experiments running simultaneously right now that are constantly and ruthlessly sorting what works, what doesn't work. 没有什么积累，这在某些方面是一种巨大的宽慰。如果你错过了过去一年，你可以在两周内赶上前沿。如果你是一个去喜马拉雅徒步一年再回来的 programmer，你可以在两周内赶上。而这其实是我们正在经历的进步的巨大功劳。我们现在同时跑着那么多实验，它们不断地、无情地在筛选什么有效、什么无效。你不必记住，甚至不必参与整段旅程。

You don't have to remember or even be part of that entire journey.

You can just show up for the results. - But the key step there, when you come back from the backpacking journey, is to be willing to become a totally new, different human because- Things are changing so fast. - That's right. - I mean, literally, if you left for the backpacking journey- ... in October last year and came back in April or May- - You might as well have been in the cryo chamber for 100 years - ... it's like, "What, what do you mean? 你可以只为结果出现。主持人：但那里的关键一步是，当你从背包旅行回来，要愿意变成一个完全新的、不同的人，因为——事情变得太快。 DHH：没错。主持人：我是说，字面上，如果你在去年十月出发背包旅行——… …四月或五月才回来——DHH：你简直像在冷冻舱里待了 100 年主持人：——就像，“什么，你是什么意思？我们不再编程了？ ”这，这是一次巨大的转变。

We're not programming anymore?" This, it's a it's a huge transformation. - It's startling, and I actually... I mean, I'm putting some of this on slightly for effect. I also recognize that it's okay to grieve for a hot moment. That's not my disposition. It's not how I do it, but I accept that that's a time-tested mechanism for coping with a sense of loss. DHH：它令人震惊，而我其实… …我是说，我这里有一点是为了效果。我也承认，花那么一阵去哀悼是可以的。那不是我的性情。那不是我做这件事的方式，但我接受那是一种久经考验的应对失落感的机制。

And it's okay to have a sense of loss that the world that you knew and maybe you were very fond of is no longer the same. - I maybe I should say out loud and explicitly that I do have that, the Native American with a tear rolling down my... Like, there's a sadness. It's a goodbye. It's a goodbye to the old world of programming. - That's, it's so fascinating to me. - I've spent so many years- - But it all amounted to this moment. 而有一种失落感是可以的：你认识的、也许你非常喜欢的那个世界，不再一样了。主持人：我也许应该大声、明确地说出来，我确实有那种感觉，那个脸上滚下一滴泪的印第安人… …就像，有一种悲伤。这是一次告别。这是对旧编程世界的告别。 DHH：那，这对我来说太迷人了。主持人：我花了那么多年——DHH：但那一切都汇成了这一刻。

That is, to me, what makes the entire journey so meaningful. 对我来说，正是这一点让整段旅程如此有意义。

AI did not arrive from the sky. It was not alien technology that had blasted through the universe and suddenly showed up on our shores. AI has been around for as long as computer science has been around. In the '50s, they thought the problem was gonna be cracked in about a decade, the smartest people at the time. AI 不是从天上掉下来的。它不是穿过宇宙轰然降临、突然出现在我们岸边的外星技术。 AI 从计算机科学存在起就一直在。 50 年代，当时最聪明的人以为这个问题大约十年就能攻克。

It took a little longer, but the reason it took a little longer was in part because we took some blind turns on the road to AI and neural networks and thought that there were other symbolic representations that were gonna carry the day, and they didn't. And that probably set us back about 15 years. So some of it was also we had to, Go through the gaming revolution, 3D games. 花的时间长了一点，但之所以长了一点，部分是因为我们在通往 AI 和 neural networks 的路上走了一些盲转弯，以为其他符号表示会赢，而它们没有。那大概让我们后退了大约 15 年。所以其中一部分也是，我们必须走过游戏革命、3D 游戏。

If we had not had Quake, if we had not had Duke Nukem, if we had not had Unreal Tournament, we'd never have gotten AI because we would never have gotten the GPUs, and therefore we would never have been able to get AI in the shape it is now. So everything we did up until this moment was required to get there. You were part of that. Holy... What a blessing. What a blessing to have contributed in your small part, either by training or by playing video games. 如果没有 Quake，如果没有 Duke Nukem，如果没有 Unreal Tournament，我们永远不会得到 AI，因为我们永远不会得到 GPUs，因此我们永远无法得到现在这种形态的 AI。所以直到这一刻我们做的一切，都是到达那里所必需的。你是其中的一部分。我的天… …多么福分。多么福分，以你那一小份做出了贡献，无论是通过训练还是通过玩电子游戏。

Literally, you could just choose to think of it that way. All those times you spent in, for my case, in the '90s just playing video games, they were- - You were contributing. - Yeah, I was contributing to the AI revolution right there and then moment. - To the progress of human civilization. No, for sure. 字面上，你可以选择这样想。所有那些你花掉的时间，就我而言是 90 年代只是在玩电子游戏，它们是——主持人：你在做贡献。 DHH：是啊，我当时当地就在为 AI 革命做贡献。

Civilization progresses with the death of the old and the birth of the new, and it continues in this way, but it's still the grieving process is a part of it, I think. - Take a moment. It's okay. Take a... And also, you don't even have to accept that it's all dead. Like, if you are still very attached to the hand chiseling, which if you'd asked me a year ago, I would have predicted that I would've been more attached. 主持人：为人类文明的进步。不，当然。文明随着旧的死去和新的诞生而进步，它以这种方式继续，但我认为哀悼过程仍然是其中的一部分。 DHH：花一会儿。没关系。花… …而且，你甚至不必接受它全死了。就像，如果你仍然非常依恋亲手凿刻，如果一年前你问我，我会预测我会更依恋。

I'm surprised- - I'm kinda surprised - ... a little that I've not been more attached. But the reason I've not been more attached, I think, is that I found something more fun. And if it hadn't been like that, if AI had just replaced the thing I loved and gave me something I hated, I'd probably be a little bitter. - I mean, this really feels... It's hilarious and awesome to watch and inspiring to watch. 我很惊讶——主持人：我有点惊讶DHH：——我并没有更依恋。但我之所以没有更依恋，我想，是因为我找到了更有趣的东西。而如果不是那样，如果 AI 只是取代了我爱的东西，给我的是我恨的东西，我大概会有点苦。主持人：我是说，这真的感觉… …看着它既好笑又了不起，也令人受启发。

It's like Picasso all of a sudden like, getting access to to image generation and getting super excited and switching in a matter of months. That's literally what happened. So, like, it's an artist that appreciated beautiful code, and all of a sudden you're talking about having fun- - I think Picasso is actually a good parallel because if you look at his early work where he learned his craft, it was painting realistic paintings, right? 就像 Picasso 突然获得了图像生成，变得超级兴奋，并在几个月里切换过来。那字面上就是发生的事。所以，就像，一个欣赏美丽代码的艺术家，突然你在谈拥有乐趣——DHH：我认为 Picasso 其实是一个很好的平行，因为如果你看他的早期作品，他学习手艺的时候，那是画写实画，对吧？

Like, he was training to be a master of the old ways of depicting reality the best way we knew how,and then along comes all these other forms of expression. Cubism comes along. And all these forms of abstract expression, he's not decrying that he's not doing Renaissance paintings anymore, that he's not just painting the perfect depiction of an apple. He's reimagining the apple to be a freaking square, and he's getting excited about that. 就像，他当时在训练成为旧方式的大师，用我们当时所知的最好方式描绘现实，然后所有这些其他表达形式来了。立体主义来了。而所有这些抽象表达形式，他并没有哀叹自己不再做文艺复兴绘画，不再只是画出对一个苹果的完美描绘。他把苹果重新想象成一个该死的正方形，并为此感到兴奋。

And I feel that transition, that we've gone from this one mode of expression, and we've suddenly opened the gates where the, like, the color spectrum is so much wider. I'm seeing more. And it's perhaps because the way I became a programmer. I did not become a programmer because a deep love of if statements. I became a programmer because I wanted programs. I wanted things to exist that did not exist. And at first, I had to learn how to program to make that happen. 而我感觉到那种转变，我们已经从这一种表达方式走出来，突然打开了大门，光谱宽了那么多。我看见得更多。而这也许是因为我成为 programmer 的方式。我成为 programmer，不是因为深爱 if statements。我成为 programmer，是因为我想要程序。我想要那些还不存在的东西存在。而起初，我必须学会怎样编程，才能让那发生。

Then I happened to fall in love with programming as a craft, and then I spent two decades really diving deep on that. But now I'm back. I'm back to having an idea and being impatient beyond belief to see it exist in the world, and AI has just shrunk that down to almost nothing. So it's an acceleration of a rediscovery. 然后我碰巧爱上了作为手艺的编程，然后我花了二十年真正深入其中。但现在我回来了。我又回到有一个想法、并且急不可耐到难以置信地想看见它存在于世上，而 AI 把那个缩短到几乎没有。所以这是一次重新发现的加速。

Now, I understand that that's not true for everyone. There are plenty of programmers who just loved programming right from the beginning, and they were attracted to the logical constructs and so forth. I mean, I've been there for two decades, so I get it. But I also think that you're able to discover new sides of yourself- ... if you let it in. Again, I keep coming back to this almost regret minimization framework, to borrow Jeff Bezos's terms here. 现在，我理解那并不是对每个人都成立。有很多 programmers 从一开始就只是爱编程，他们被逻辑构造之类的东西吸引。我是说，我在那里待了二十年，所以我理解。但我也认为，如果你让它进来，你能够发现自己新的面向——……再说一次，我不断回到这个几乎是遗憾最小化框架，借用 Jeff Bezos 的说法。

Are you gonna look at yourself two years from now and think, "Oh, I spent my time well being pissy about the present, about the fact that my industry changed"? Or Would I two years from now look back upon this moment and be proud of myself for leaning in, for maybe having a moment of grief? Again, there's room for all of it. And then going, "I'm gonna learn how the world spins now, and I'm gonna make not just the best of it, I'm gonna make more of it." 两年后你会看着自己，想：“哦，我把时间花在对当下生气、对我的行业变了这件事上，花得很好”？还是两年后我会回头看这一刻，为自己靠了进去、也许有过一阵哀悼而自豪？再说一次，这一切都有空间。然后说：“我要学习世界现在怎样转，我不仅要尽量利用它，我还要从中做出更多。”

- I mean, it is true, a lot of programmers, a lot of friends of mine, me, obviously you, are having fun. - I have had more fun with computers in the last three months than at any time previously. - Quick bathroom break, and then I gotta ask you about how you actually interact with the systems now. - Yes. 主持人：我是说，这是真的，很多 programmers，我的很多朋友，我，显然还有你，都在获得乐趣。DHH：过去三个月，我从计算机里得到的乐趣，比以往任何时候都多。主持人：快速去一下洗手间，然后我得问你现在实际怎样和这些系统互动。DHH：好。

- I gotta ask you about how has your programming setup changed? So keyboard, voice, what's the IDE? - It's crazy to think about now, but yeah, I used TextMate for almost 20 years. I used TextMate starting in 2005, I think. I helped get the first version out, and then I just wasn't interested. I wasn't in the market for an alternative. And it wasn't until the switch to Linux that I was forced out of my habitat. And now with the switch to, what are we calling it? 主持人：我得问你，你的编程 setup 发生了怎样的变化？所以键盘、语音，IDE 是什么？ DHH：现在想起来很疯狂，但没错，我用了 TextMate 将近 20 年。我想从 2005 年开始用 TextMate。我帮着把第一版做出来，然后我就是不感兴趣。我不在寻找替代品的市场里。而直到切到 Linux，我才被迫离开自己的栖息地。而现在随着切到，我们叫它什么？ Agentic engineering？

Agentic engineering? Oh, I fucking hate that term. We gotta come up with something that sounds as plain as programming, but encapsulates the fact that it's with agents. But- - I still think it should be called programming at this point. - ... All right, let's just call it programming. Programming with agents requires a different tool set. It really does. 哦，我他妈讨厌那个词。我们得想出一个听起来像 programming 一样朴素、但又囊括“是和 agents 一起”这个事实的词。但是——主持人：我仍然认为到这个地步它就该叫 programming。 DHH：… …好，那我们就叫它 programming。和 agents 一起 programming 需要一套不同的工具。它真的需要。

And the main change here is that you're going from single thread programming in your head to parallel processing. When I was writing code, chiseling it by hand in TextMate or even Neovim, Not that long ago, I would just focus on one problem at the time, and I would methodically work my way through it, and that was actually the portal to flow. The portal to flow was deep,immersion into a single problem, see it through to the end. 而这里的主要变化是，你从脑子里的单线程 programming，走向并行处理。当我在写代码，在 TextMate 甚至 Neovim 里亲手凿它时，那还不久以前，我一次只专注一个问题，然后有条不紊地做完，而那其实就是通往心流的门户。通往心流的门户是深度、沉浸进一个单一问题，把它看到底。和 agents 一起就不是那样运作，部分因为 agents 同时既太快又太慢。

That's not how it works with agents, in part because the agents are at once both too fast and too slow. They don't give you an immediate reply on something that you asked them to do that's the same as typing on a keyboard. So you have to let the agent cook- ... for a bit, and therefore you realize, well,if I just sit around waiting for them, first of all, that doesn't feel productive. Even if the agent, just one of them, can be highly productive, it does not feel productive. 它们不会对你让它们做的事立刻给出回复，那种回复和在键盘上打字不一样。所以你必须让 agent 煮一会儿——… …因此你意识到，好，如果我只是坐着等它们，首先，那感觉没有生产力。即便那个 agent，只是其中一个，可以非常有生产力，那感觉也不像有生产力。那感觉不好。那其实感觉你有点没用。

It does not feel good. It feels actually like you're a little bit useless. And maybe I had a moment, when the first agentic moment was there and we, I was running mostly one agent at a time where I felt like, "I don't know about this." But you can solve a lot of hard problems by simply throwing more resources at it. This is the whole scaling law of AI of itself, right? 也许我有过那么一阵，当第一个 agentic 时刻到来、我们、我大多一次只跑一个 agent 时，我觉得：“我不知道这个。 ”但你可以通过简单地往上砸更多资源来解决很多难题。这就是整个AI 本身的 scaling law，对吧？

That if you parallelize these things and you're not running one agent, but you're running a handful, you can feel like you're in a flow state because you're constantly doing programming work in the sense that you're making decisions, and you're helping either unblock an agent because it has a question about which direction to take, or you're ready for a new task. And to do that, you need a different setup. 如果你把这些东西并行化，你跑的不是一个 agent，而是一把，你会感觉自己处于心流状态，因为你不断在做 programming 工作，意思是你在做决定，你要么帮着给一个 agent 解阻塞，因为它对走哪个方向有问题，要么你已经准备好一个新任务。而要做到这一点，你需要不同的 setup。我一开始先在 tmux 里做，只是有分开的 panes，有分开的 splits。基本上，可以把它想成一个带 tabs 的 terminal。

I started first doing it in tmux and just having separate panes and having separate splits. Basically, a terminal with tabs is a good way to think about it. You open a bunch of tabs. I think most humans know exactly how that works. 你打开一堆 tabs。我想大多数人完全知道那是怎么运作的。他们不会只在一个 tab 里工作。主持人：所以仍然守着 terminal，CLI。 DHH：绝对是。主持人：所以你不用 Claude Code app，也不用——DHH：不用。

They don't work in just one tab. - So still sticking to the terminal, CLI. - Absolutely. - So you're not using Claude Code app or the- - No. - ... Codex app or the- - I love the fact that this agent revolution was kicked off in the terminal because I was already a huge fan of TUIs, terminal user interfaces, and the terminal in general. That feels like a, a really nice place to be. It's a beautiful place to be. The modern terminal is just a good-looking place to work. ——… … Codex app，也不用——DHH：我喜欢这场 agent 革命是在 terminal 里被踢起来的，因为我已经是 TUI、terminal user interfaces 以及 terminal 本身的巨大粉丝。那感觉是一个真正舒服的地方。那是一个美丽的地方。现代 terminal 就是一个好看的工作场所。

So I like that. And then this fact of having multiple agents, especially once it's not just multiple agents running on your own machine, but you start running multiple machines. Now tmux alone is not enough to keep track of it, and that's why as of late I've switched to this thing called Herdr. And Herdr is essentially tmux plus agent notifications. 所以我喜欢那个。然后这种有多个 agents 的事实，尤其一旦不只是在你自己的机器上跑多个 agents，而是你开始跑多台机器。这时单靠 tmux 就不够跟上了，这就是为什么最近我切到了一个叫 Herdr 的东西。而 Herdr 本质上是 tmux 加上 agent 通知。

So whenever your agent is done and needs something for you, it goes ding, a little bell telling you it's ready for its human, uh... Is it master or servant? I'm not quite sure always. But it is ready for a decision, and it also keeps track of these is it in working mode or not. So I have this Herdr set up. I have multiple Herdr setups actually running on individual machines. 所以每当你的 agent 做完、需要你做什么，它会叮一声，一个小铃告诉你它已经准备好见它的人类，呃… …是主人还是仆人？我并不总是很确定。但它已经准备好做一个决定，它也跟踪这些是处于 working 模式还是不是。所以我有这套 Herdr setup。我其实有多套 Herdr setups，跑在各自的机器上。

I went on this crazy phase just about a month ago realizing that doing this work on a single machine is not fast enough. It's like I've discovered multi-core programming, but I only have two cores. I'm like, "What if I had 16 cores? What if I had 32 cores? What if I had 64 cores?" So I instantly went out and I bought these amazing KVMs called GL.iNet Comets. And what they do is it's this little box. You plug in HDMI, you plug in USB and connect it to the computer. 大约一个月前我进入了这种疯狂阶段，意识到在单台机器上做这件事不够快。就像我发现了多核 programming，但我只有两个核。我想：“如果我有 16 个核呢？如果我有 32 个核呢？如果我有 64 个核呢？ ”于是我立刻出门买了这些惊人的KVMs，叫 GL.iNet Comets。而它们做的是这个小盒子。你插上 HDMI，插上 USB，连到计算机上。

It's like a KVM. So a KVM is a remote way of controlling a computer, but what's special about this is just how easy it was. You connect this thing in, you go to a webpage, log in once, set one password. Now this thing can hop on your tailnet. 它就像一个 KVM。 KVM 是一种远程控制计算机的方式，而特别之处在于它有多容易。你把这东西接上，打开一个网页，登录一次，设一个密码。现在这东西可以跳上你的 tailnet。

This has been the other revolution of the last year for me, is discovering these WireGuard networks. Uh, Tailscale is essentially turning all the computers you have into a local network wherever you are. Like right now on my phone, I have direct access to all the computers in my Malibu office. I also have access to all my computers in my Copenhagen office. 这是过去一年对我而言的另一场革命：发现这些 WireGuard 网络。呃，Tailscale 本质上是把你拥有的所有计算机变成一个本地网络，无论你在哪里。就像此刻在我的手机上，我能直接访问 Malibu 办公室里的所有计算机。我也能访问哥本哈根办公室里的所有计算机。

And I can treat them as though I sat right next to them without having to punch holes in a firewall or set up complicated VPNs. And what this does is it just decreases the friction it takes to get new compute online. So as soon as I discovered this, I looked at my closet, and I realized I had a bunch of mini PCs from prior experiments, and I just said, "What if I just connected all of them?" And I just connected four of the computers- ... in a closet. 而我可以像就坐在它们旁边一样对待它们，不必在防火墙打洞，也不必设置复杂的 VPNs。而这样做的效果是，它只是降低了把新算力上线所需的摩擦。所以我一发现这个，就看了看自己的柜子，意识到我有一堆先前实验留下的 mini PCs，然后我说：“如果我把它们全连上呢？ ”于是我只连了四台计算机—— …

They all had their little Comet, and suddenly I could run agents on more computers at the same time, and I could control them all with Herdr. And it did get to a point where I maxed out my own processing power. That I think at about... What do we want to put it? About four to five machines running, I don't know, three agents. I have about 16 threads. That's what I can run. …在一个柜子里。它们各自有自己的小 Comet，突然我可以同时在更多计算机上跑 agents，并且用 Herdr 控制它们全部。而它确实到了一个点，我把自己的处理能力用满了。我想大约在… …我们想怎么说？大约四到五台机器在跑，我不知道，三个 agents。我大约有 16 条 threads。那就是我能跑的。

And the faster the agents run, of course, the fewer threads I can run, but at the current pace, I can run about 16 threads- - Mm-hmm, at full acceleration. And that's part of why I've gone from just being excited about the agent moment to being delirious. Because I think as you say, some of it is a little assaulting. Again, we're on a dial-up bandwidth-wise with our computer. I mean,it's actually hilarious. So you think of I'm sitting here a year ago, right? 而 agents 跑得越快，我当然能跑的 threads 就越少，但按当前节奏，我大约能跑 16 条 threads——主持人：嗯，全加速。而这正是我从只是对 agent 时刻感到兴奋，变成谵妄的部分原因。因为我认为如你所说，其中一些有点像被冲击。再说一次，我们和计算机之间还是拨号带宽。我是说，这其实很好笑。所以你想，一年前我坐在这里，对吧？

I'm chiseling my code. Yeah. - I'm writing my lines. And over the course of, like, an hour, I will have written one beautiful controller, one beautiful model. Like, that's one file. And I've really worked on it, right? So maybe there's 60 lines left. So maybe my bandwidth at this moment is, like, 30 lines an hour. I think that's even high. Maybe it's 20 lines an hour. Now I'm running 16 threads. 我在凿我的代码。是啊。 DHH：我在写我的那些行。而在大约一个小时里，我会写出一个美丽的 controller，一个美丽的 model。就像，那是一个文件。而我真的在上面下了功夫，对吧？所以也许剩下 60 行。所以也许我此刻的带宽是，像，每小时 30 行。我想那甚至已经偏高。也许是每小时 20 行。现在我跑着 16 条 threads。

I'm producing at some times hundreds of lines of hour or hundreds of lines of code per hour. Now, let me pause myself there for a hot moment. I hate that metric, right? 我有时每小时产出几百行，或者说每小时几百行代码。现在让我在这里停一下。我讨厌那个指标，对吧？

Like, lines of code is a stupid metric in general to measure these things, and I think it's right from some in the programming community to ridicule the AI psychosis when everyone talks about the number of lines of code they're writing, and then you ask them,"What did you build?" And they're like, "Well, I..." And then no good answer comes out, right? - It's just a nice shorthand to- - It is a nice shorthand. 就像，代码行数总体上是衡量这些事的愚蠢指标，我认为编程社区里有些人嘲笑 AI psychosis 是对的，当每个人都在谈自己在写多少行代码，然后你问他们，“你构建了什么？ ”他们就像：“嗯，我… … ”然后没有好答案出来，对吧？主持人：它只是一个方便的简称，用来——DHH：它是一个方便的简称。它是对正在出来的产出有多少的一种表示或封装。至于产出是好是坏——… …

It is a representation or encapsulation of how much output that's coming out. Now, whether the output is good or bad- ... is not a referendum on that. But I was producing and producing so much more now, right? And therefore I'm able to keep all these threads going. So that's the setup. It's still Neovim, but at this point,I'm not writing a lot of code, so I'm using Neovim as a project browser and then as a way to kick off Lazy Git to see the change log for what's there. 那并不是对那个的公投。但我现在在产出，产出多得多，对吧？因此我能够让所有这些 threads 一直转。所以那就是 setup。它仍然是 Neovim，但到这个地步，我写的代码不多，所以我把 Neovim 当项目浏览器，以及用来启动 Lazy Git，去看那里的 change log。即便那样，我也得说，如果 GitHub 显示你的 pull request 再快一点，web 大概其实是做那件事更舒服的地方。

And even that, I'd say if GitHub was a little faster at showing you your pull request, the web is probably actually a nicer place to do that. I don't know. There's also this other tool I've been playing with a bit called Hunk, which just produces Diffs in a really nice way. So you could look at that too. But I find that when I look at Hunk, I only see the change set, and when I'm reviewing output from an agent, I often want to see the surrounding context. 我不知道。还有另一个我玩过一点的工具叫 Hunk，它以一种非常好看的方式产出 Diffs。所以你也可以看那个。但我发现当我看Hunk 时，我只看见 change set，而当我审一个 agent 的产出时，我常常想看见周围的 context。哦，对，所以它改了这个文件，但其实，我们在另一个没被碰到、也许本该被碰到的文件里有什么？

Oh, yeah, so it changed this file, but actually, what do we have in this other file that wasn't touched but maybe should've been touched? So that's why I still like Neovim as a way of doing it. But it's all happening, by the way, of course, in Amachi. So it's all happening on Linux. And this was the other major breakthrough with agents. Agents love the Unix philosophy. 所以这就是我仍然喜欢用 Neovim 来做这件事的原因。但顺便说，这一切当然都发生在 Omarchy 里。所以这一切都发生在 Linux 上。而这是和 agents 在一起的另一项重大突破。 Agents 热爱 Unix 哲学。

It loves individual tools that it can invoke through the command line, and there is no operating system on Earth of the majors, I'm counting three here, Mac, Windows, Linux, that works as well with that mechanism as Linux. Everything in Linux is either a config file or a CLI tool. Now, that was its main drawback five minutes ago. This was the reason people didn't like Linux. It's like it's all config files and CLI tools. 它热爱那些能通过 command line 调用的单个工具，而在地球上主要的操作系统里，我这里数三个，Mac、Windows、Linux，没有哪个像 Linux 那样与那种机制配合得那么好。 Linux 里的一切要么是一个 config file，要么是一个 CLI tool。现在，那在五分钟前还是它的主要缺点。这就是人们不喜欢 Linux 的原因。

What great irony that the universe has played it upon us that now the drawbacks of Linux five minutes ago are now its major selling points. This was one of the things I thought I was stuck for a weekend with a Mac four months ago. 就像，全是 config files 和 CLI tools。宇宙跟我们开的多大的玩笑：五分钟前 Linux 的那些缺点，现在成了它的主要卖点。这是其中一件事，四个月前我以为自己被困在一台 Mac 上过周末。

I thought I had a computer at the place I was going that was a Linux machine, so I didn't bring my laptop, and I found out when I arrived I only had a Mac Mini. So I was gonna make the best of a bad situation here and, Set up my Mac in some of the ways I've been thinking about with, With Linux. And you can actually do a lot now. Homebrew has gotten really quite good. 我以为我要去的地方有一台 Linux 机器，所以我没带笔记本电脑，到了才发现只有一台 Mac Mini。于是我打算把这个糟糕局面尽量用好，按我一直在想的、用 Linux 的那些方式，把我的 Mac 设起来。而现在你其实能做很多。 Homebrew 已经变得相当好。

Homebrew is the missing package manager for the Mac,and no one has done more to move the Mac forward in terms of ease of setup. But still something as simple as Raycast, I don't know if you've used that. That's the- There's no config file that you can just access. You have to go into the GUI, export a file, then take that file, I don't know, in your freaking backpack on a USB key. And then you can import it somewhere else. You cannot automate the entire setup of your machine. Homebrew 是 Mac 缺失的 package manager，在易用安装方面，没有人比它对推动 Mac 向前贡献更多。但仍然有像 Raycast 这样简单的东西，我不知道你用过没有。那就是——没有一个你可以随便访问的 config file。你必须进入 GUI，导出一个文件，然后拿着那个文件，我不知道，放进你该死的背包里的 USB 钥匙。然后你才能在别处导入。你无法自动化整台机器的安装。你完全无法自动化 Mac 默认按键绑定的配置。

You can't automate at all the configuration of Mac's default key bindings. That has to be a manual process where you're clicking with a mouse like a caveman to set up your machine. - I mean, there's ways around it. - Not good ones. I looked. I tried hard - So here's my, been my journey. Obviously I'm a Linux person, but because of Adobe Premiere, Adobe products, I'm also a Windows person, so oftentimes I would use WSL, Windows Subsystems for Linux. 那必须是一个手动过程，你像洞穴人一样用鼠标点来点去，才能把机器设好。主持人：我是说，有绕过的办法。 DHH：没有好的。我找过。我很努力试过。主持人：所以这是我的，一直是我的旅程。显然我是 Linux 的人，但因为 Adobe Premiere、Adobe 产品，我也是 Windows 的人，所以我常常会用 WSL，Windows Subsystem for Linux。

So Linux inside Windows, which is... in the agentic era is not a good kind of Linux, 'cause it's just- - It's a sandbox - ... it's a sandbox, and you want the Linux to be unleashed to be able to do everything. - Correct. - And so I have now woken up to things like GrayCat, and have you know, I'm a keyboard person. Where's the config file? 所以是 Windows 里面的 Linux，而这… …在 agentic 时代并不是一种好的 Linux，因为它只是——DHH：它是一个 sandbox——… …它是一个 sandbox，而你想要 Linux 被放开，能够做一切。 DHH：没错。主持人：所以我现在已经醒过来，去看像 GrayCat 这类东西，而且你知道，我是键盘的人。

What, can I, can I basically do everything where an agent can set everything up for me and save the configuration so I can replicate it across systems and everything's automated? And so I had to ask a lot of those questions, and a lot of them are missing. - They don't have good answers. - But oftentimes you could actually just build the app yourself. - But there are hacks. - Yeah, they're hacks. - There are hacks. You don't have to live like this, Lex. config file 在哪？什么，我能不能，我能不能基本上做一切，让一个 agent 替我设好一切、保存配置，好让我可以跨系统复制，一切都自动化？所以我不得不问很多那样的问题，而其中很多都缺失。 DHH：它们没有好答案。主持人：但很多时候你其实可以直接自己把那个应用做出来。 DHH：但有 hacks。主持人：是啊，它们是 hacks。 DHH：有 hacks。你不必这样活着，Lex。

There's a better... Actually, this is a great moment. - Until you have a video editor. - So this is a good moment. - Yep. - Um, I heard it was your birthday. So I brought a little gift. - No. 有更好的… …其实，这是一个很好的时刻。主持人：直到你有一个视频编辑器。 DHH：所以这是一个好时刻。主持人：对。 DHH：嗯，我听说是你的生日。所以我带了一点礼物。主持人：不。

- We are going to get you onto the agentic operating system whether you like it or not. - This is awesome. - And I asked- ... my friends at Dell whether maybe they had a machine that, um, I could get you for your birthday. - Oh, no. - So here's the machine I use- ... which is- ... well, the same one I use, but it's now yours. It's a- ... Dell XPS 14- ... already set up with Omarchy 4- ... ready to be configured for you. DHH：我们会把你弄上这套 agentic 操作系统，不管你愿不愿意。主持人：这太棒了。 DHH：我还问了 Dell 的朋友，看他们能不能给你弄一台机器，当你的生日礼物。主持人：哦，不会吧。 DHH：所以这就是我用的这台机器… …其实就是同一款，但现在是你的了。这是一台 Dell XPS 14，已经装好了 Omarchy 4，等着给你配置。

And once you realize that all your... By the way, we should almost time this. You can be up and running. You have to answer, like, five questions in about one minute. You could literally do it live if you wanted to. - Oh, Omarchy, beautiful, modern opinion Linux by DHH. Yeah, let's do it. - Yeah, fill it out while I talk. 而且一旦你意识到，你所有的… …对了，我们几乎可以给这个计时。你可以马上跑起来。你大概要回答五个问题，大约一分钟。你完全可以现场装，如果你愿意的话。主持人：哦，Omarchy，DHH 做的漂亮、现代、有主见的 Linux。

So- ... exactly what you realized, that pain on the Mac was the exposure I got for about a weekend, and I tried really hard, and I found some decent workarounds, the main one being that Homebrew now has tabs for GUI apps. 好，我们来装。 DHH：对，我说话的时候你把它填了。所以… …你刚才意识到的，Mac 上的那种痛苦，我大概体验了一个周末。

Because it's hilarious to think upon the recent past where people would go to websites, like, "I need Zoom." They would enter zoom.com, find the download link, download a DMG- ... double-click on that, see a weird manual interaction telling them to drag an icon from one place of the screen to the other, and that was how you installed apps. 我很努力地试过，也找到了一些还不错的变通办法，主要是 Homebrew 现在给 GUI 应用也加了 tabs。因为回想不久前的做法会觉得很好笑：人们会去网站，比如「我需要 Zoom」。他们会输入 zoom.com，找到下载链接，下载一个 DMG，双击它，然后看到一个奇怪的手动操作，让他们把一个图标从屏幕的一个地方拖到另一个地方，那就是当时安装应用的方式。

And you'd just do that over and over again until you had all the apps that you wanted, and if you were setting up a new machine and you had, like, 12 apps, you'd go to 12 different websites to download them like a total caveman. Homebrew has solved a lot of that, but it has not solved all of it, and has solved nothing in terms of the- - Sorry to interrupt, but look how fast this is going. 你就一遍遍这么干，直到装齐所有想要的应用。如果你在配置一台新机器，大概有 12 个应用，你就要去 12 个不同的网站下载，完全像原始人。 Homebrew 解决了其中很多问题，但没有全部解决，而且在… …方面什么都没解决。主持人：抱歉打断一下，你看这装得多快。

- Oh, it's gonna be done in about 40 seconds. And then you're gonna be inside of Omarchy. - Super is the Windows or Command key on your keyboard. So which one is the Super key? - Yep, that's the Windows key. Oh, actually, no, no, you have a special edition. There are only about six of these computers in the world. - Oh, there's a Super key. - It says Super, and look at where the Copilot key is on the other end of the keyboard. That's the Omarchy logo. - Nice. DHH：哦，大概 40 秒就会装完。然后你就进到 Omarchy 里了。主持人：Super 就是键盘上的 Windows 键或 Command 键。那 Super 键是哪一个？ DHH：对，就是 Windows 键。哦，其实不是，不是，你这一台是特别版。全世界大概只有六台这样的电脑。主持人：哦，这里有 Super 键。 DHH：上面写着 Super，再看键盘另一端原来 Copilot 键的位置。

Okay, cool. - This was Spencer Bull at Dell, who I've been working with on a lot of this stuff. They've been incredible. - They, for a moment, let go of the XPS brand. - Yes, they did, last year. - And I was like, "This is dumb. This is... XPS is awesome." - It was not just dumb that it got rid of the XPS branding. They also got rid of the Escape key and put in capacitive touch buttons at the top. 那是 Omarchy 的 logo。主持人：漂亮。好，酷。 DHH：这是 Dell 的 Spencer Bull 做的，我一直在跟他一起做很多这类事。他们非常靠谱。主持人：他们有一阵子把 XPS 这个品牌放下了。 DHH：是的，去年放下了。主持人：当时我就想：「这太蠢了。这… … XPS 很棒。 」DHH：蠢的不只是拿掉 XPS 品牌。

The mistake that Apple realized like three years ago was terrible, and everyone hated them for them. But now they have an incredible team, and this was actually my first Dell laptop for myself. Because I've been using Dell on our servers. Dell was what powered our cloud exit. We've been running Dell since the mid-2000s, I think. But I never ran their laptops, because compared to a MacBook, they just weren't up to the task for me. 他们还拿掉了 Escape 键，在顶部改成电容触摸按键。 Apple 大概三年前就意识到那是个糟糕的错误，所有人都为此讨厌他们。但现在他们有一支很强的团队，而且这其实是我自己用的第一台 Dell 笔记本。因为我们服务器一直在用 Dell。 Dell 是支撑我们 cloud exit 的机器。我们大概从 2000 年代中期就开始跑 Dell。

The XPS' from 2016, or from 2026, with those Intel Panther Lake chips, are the first Dells that I would personally actually use. And it's funny because when I got mad at Apple originally, I thought, like, "Do you know what? I should just get a Dell," because we already used them and whatever, and I got a Dell, and I was like, "Man, I can't do it. I can't do it. It's not good enough." And then lo and behold, this year they just fixed everything. They fixed the battery life. 但我从来没用过他们的笔记本，因为跟 MacBook 比，对我来说就是不够用。 2016 年的 XPS，或者说 2026 年搭载 Intel Panther Lake 芯片的那些 XPS，才是第一批我会真正自己用的 Dell。很好笑的是，我最初生 Apple 的气时，心想：「你知道吗？我干脆买一台 Dell 好了」，因为我们本来就在用，然后我买了一台 Dell，结果心想：「不行，我用不了，不够好。 」结果你看，今年他们把所有问题都修好了。

They fixed the performance. They fixed the compatibility. They fixed the weight. They fixed the screen. That's a tandem OLED screen- - Yeah, that's incredible. 续航修好了，性能修好了，兼容性修好了，重量修好了，屏幕也修好了。那是一块 tandem OLED 屏幕。主持人：对，那太惊人了。

- ... which means it's actually better tech than what you'll get in a freaking MacBook. It's lighter than a MacBook, and the chip is finally competitive because Intel spent a good five years developing the 18A process node. It took a long time, but now it's here, and it's freaking incredible. We finally have competition to Apple M chips- ... that can go as long as on battery and can have competitive performance. DHH：……也就是说，这技术其实比你在一台该死的 MacBook 里拿到的还好。它比 MacBook 更轻，芯片终于有竞争力了，因为 Intel 花了整整五年去做 18A 制程节点。花了很长时间，但现在它来了，而且简直不可思议。我们终于有了能跟 Apple M 芯片竞争的东西……续航能打得一样久，性能也有竞争力。

- And there's a beautiful default theme to this thing, and then what is it? Super Space opens up. - Actually, you can just push the Omarchy key. It opens up the menu. So now you control everything from there. - Oh, same thing as the Super. Okay. - Yeah. - Cool. - Same thing as Super Space. So this has been a huge change for me, that we finally have Linux machines that you don't have to make excuses for. 主持人：而且这东西有一套很漂亮的默认主题，然后是什么？ Super 加空格会打开。 DHH：其实你直接按 Omarchy 键就行。它会打开菜单。现在你从那里控制一切。主持人：哦，跟 Super 是一回事。好。 DHH：对。主持人：酷。 DHH：跟 Super 加空格是一回事。所以这对我来说是一个巨大的变化：我们终于有了不必再找借口的 Linux 机器。

Because I don't mind making excuses because excuses are really just another word for trade-offs. 因为我并不介意找借口，借口其实只是权衡的另一种说法。

I love that Framework 13 I think I talked about last time. I still like them. They still make good computers. But I think for a lot of people, they didn't want a DIY experience. They wanted something that just out of the box felt like it was on par in build quality and whatever with Macs, and now we finally have it. So happy birthday. 我很喜欢那台 Framework 13，上次我想我谈到过。我仍然喜欢它们。它们仍然在做很好的电脑。但我觉得对很多人来说，他们不想要 DIY 体验。他们想要开箱就能在做工之类的方面跟 Mac 持平的东西，现在我们终于有了。所以，生日快乐。

- Thank you so much. An Omarchy Dell laptop from DHH is the best birthday present. This is awesome. - Check the screensaver, by the way. - Yeah, it's kind of amazing. I'm seeing it. - On that tandem OLED screen- - It's gorgeous. - ... it is absolutely mind-bogglingly awesome. - Look at that. 主持人：太谢谢了。一台来自 DHH 的 Omarchy Dell 笔记本，是最好的生日礼物。这太棒了。 DHH：对了，看看屏保。主持人：对，有点惊人。我看到了。 DHH：在那块 tandem OLED 屏幕上。主持人：太美了。 DHH：…

There's like a retro look to the whole thing. - Totally. - It's like Fiverr pop- - It's like running a bulletin board system in- ... the '90s, which is exactly what I did when I was 14 years old. …绝对让人瞠目结舌。主持人：你看那个。整体有一种复古的感觉。 DHH：完全是。主持人：有点像那种复古流行风。

So for me, it's a complete throwback and an awesome aesthetic, combining this sense of modern rising culture in Unix with- ... this throwback of the '90s. - Yeah, like a retro look for an agent first OS. - Exactly. - It's crazy. - Which again, pairs... This was why I was so excited that- ... all these agent harnesses arrived as TUI's, arrived as CLIs- ... has arrived as a terminal because suddenly,a whole new generation of both programmers and regular users discovered the glory of the terminal. DHH：就像在跑一套 90 年代的电子公告板系统，而这正好是我 14 岁时在做的事。所以对我来说，这完全是一次回潮，而且审美很棒，把 Unix 里正在兴起的现代文化，和 90 年代的这种回潮结合在一起。主持人：对，像是给一套 agent first 的操作系统做了一层复古外观。 DHH：正是如此。主持人：太疯狂了。 DHH：而这又刚好对上… …

The terminal was actually one of the most, impressive and productive user interfaces we can have. Now, we've built user interfaces since then that were easier to learn. The mouse is a wonderful invention for letting someone who doesn't know a lot about computers just click around and find things out, but the terminal is for people who want to learn their systems, who want to learn the keyboard commands. - So you think the TUI is gonna stick around? 这就是我当时那么兴奋的原因：所有这些 agent harness 都以 TUI 的形式到来，以 CLI 的形式到来，以终端的形式到来，因为突然之间，全新一代的程序员和普通用户，都发现了终端的美妙。终端其实是我们能拥有的、最令人印象深刻、也最能提高效率的用户界面之一。后来我们做出了更容易学的用户界面。鼠标是一项美妙的发明，能让不太懂电脑的人点来点去、把东西找出来，但终端是给那些想要学习自己的系统、想学习键盘命令的人用的。

- 100%. Now, it's not gonna be the only thing. Of course it's not, because these labs now have trillion-dollar valuations, so they need to be able to reach billions of people. And I don't think we're gonna teach billions of people the intricacies of the TUI. So we're gonna have other tools, and we already have other tools, which is, by the way, one of the sweet things about Linux, the ChatGPT Codex tool. - Yeah, I saw that. 主持人：所以你认为 TUI 会留下来？ DHH：百分百会。当然，它不会是唯一的东西。当然不会，因为这些实验室现在有万亿美元级的估值，所以它们必须触达几十亿人。我不认为我们会把 TUI 的种种细节教给几十亿人。所以我们还会有别的工具，而且已经有了，顺便说一句，这也是 Linux 很美妙的一点：ChatGPT 的 Codex 工具。主持人：对，我看到了。

- Literally within two hours of that announcement dropping, I had it wrapped up and ready to go in Omakub. Already now, if you go to... You can actually hit the Omakub key- ... and then just write ChatGPT. It should pop up as, like, install. And then just hit return. - Sudo password for Lex. - Yeah, whatever you put in. DHH：那个公告发出后不到两小时，我就把它包好，放进 Omarchy，随时能用。现在如果你去… …你其实可以按 Omarchy 键，然后直接输入 ChatGPT。它应该会弹出来，像是安装。然后按回车。主持人：Lex 的 sudo 密码。

And then it's just gonna install it, and it's gonna pop it up, and you have ChatGPT. - Nice. - And that's how a lot of the apps are, and all the agentic harnesses are built in that way. Um, Tailscale, as I talked about, if you wanna hop on that, is that way. Uh, Dropbox. And the reason all these things are in there is because I use them. It's because I built this system for me, and I thought, first and foremost, how do I build my dream computer just for me? DHH：对，你设成什么就输入什么。然后它就会安装，弹出来，你就有 ChatGPT 了。主持人：漂亮。 DHH：很多应用都是这样，所有 agentic harness 也是按这种方式做进去的。 Tailscale，我刚才说过，如果你想接上，也是这样。还有 Dropbox。这些东西会在里面，是因为我自己在用。因为我是为自己做这套系统的，我首先想的是：我要怎样只为自己做出梦想中的电脑？

And if I get my dream computer, I am assured there are other people who are gonna have the same dreams as I do. - Now, you're obsessed about getting the installation to be under one minute, and a bunch of people asked you online why. So Why? Why were you so obsessed to getting the installation to be less than 60 seconds? 如果我得到了梦想中的电脑，我可以确定，还会有其他人做着和我一样的梦。主持人：你现在特别执着于把安装时间压到一分钟以内，网上好多人问你为什么。所以为什么？你为什么那么执着于把安装时间压到 60 秒以内？

- First, let me quote Mitchell Hashimoto, who created Ghostty terminal that's awesome and also available on Omakub and was also the founder of HashiCorp, who had this great post on X not too long ago that had the killer line, "The pursuit of excellence deserves no explanation." DHH：先让我引用 Mitchell Hashimoto，他做了非常棒的 Ghostty 终端，Omarchy 上也有，他也是 HashiCorp 的创始人。不久前他在 X 上发过一篇很好的帖子，里面有一句杀手级的话：「追求卓越，无需解释。 」

Wanting to make something as good and as fast and as beautiful as possible has no need for justification. We should want beautiful, fast systems that are a delight to use. Now, the funny thing with the install time is it didn't actually start with a one-minute mission. I was being modest when it got going. I thought if I could set up my entire system in 15 minutes,it would already be such a dramatic improvement over what came before it that I would be perfectly happy. 想把一样东西做得尽可能好、尽可能快、尽可能美，根本不需要辩护。我们就应该想要漂亮、快速、用起来让人愉快的系统。有趣的是，安装时间这件事，一开始并不是奔着一分钟去的。刚开始的时候我其实很谦虚。我当时想，如果我能在 15 分钟内把整套系统装好，那已经会是对从前的巨大改进，我会非常满意。而这源于基准被扭曲得太离谱。

And it came off the fact that the benchmarking had been skewed so out of whack. You talked about the Commodore 64 being your first computer, right? When you unwrap that Commodore 64 and you hit the on button, in I think about less than one second, the basic interpreter was ready to accept your command. It was literally almost instant. There was virtually no boot time. 你说过 Commodore 64 是你的第一台电脑，对吧？当你拆开那台 Commodore 64，按下开机键，我记得大概不到一秒，BASIC 解释器就已经准备好接受你的命令。几乎是瞬间。几乎没有启动时间。你知道我花了多久去设置一台新买的 Mac 吗？

Do you know how long it took me to set up a new Mac that I had bought for actually the one app that I still haven't vibe coded my way into on Linux, which is Adobe Lightroom? Brand-new computer, out of the box. I set it up. There's a software update. Before I was ready to install Adobe Lightroom that I had it fully up to date, it took 42 minutes. That's grotesque. That's absurd. 买它其实就为了那个我还没在 Linux 上 vibe code 出来的应用，也就是 Adobe Lightroom。全新电脑，开箱。我开始设置。有一个软件更新。等我把它完全更新到最新，准备好安装 Adobe Lightroom，花了 42 分钟。

That's an insult to everyone who likes computers, that you get a new computer and before you can use it, you have to spend 42 minutes doing updates on something that was already installed on it out of the box from the factory. That is just preposterous, and it's crazy that that's not even the worst thing. I also got a PC, um, because all these Linux machines, they come as PCs, right? - Right. - And they have Windows pre-installed. So I got one. This was just three weeks ago. 这太难看了。这太荒谬了。这是对所有喜欢电脑的人的侮辱：你拿到一台新电脑，在能用之前，还要花 42 分钟去更新工厂出厂时就已经装在上面的东西。这简直荒唐，更疯狂的是这还不是最糟的。我还拿过一台 PC，因为所有这些 Linux 机器，出厂时都是 PC，对吧？主持人：对。 DHH：而且它们预装了 Windows。所以我拿了一台。这不过是三周前的事。全新机器，Intel Panther Lake，全套配置。

Brand-new machine, Intel Panther Lake, the whole shebang. An hour and 35 minutes from unwrapping the thing until it's ready to use. How long did you take before you think you were in Omakub? - I mean, it's less than a minute for sure. - A minute. We can build computers like this. We have the technology. We've had the technology since like 1981 when the Commodore 64 first came out. 从拆封到能用，花了一小时 35 分钟。你觉得自己进到 Omarchy 里花了多久？主持人：我是说，肯定不到一分钟。 DHH：一分钟。我们能把电脑做成这样。我们有这个技术。我们从 1981 年 Commodore 64 问世时就有这个技术了。

The fact that we now have a computer that's a trillion times faster and you have to spend 42 minutes or an hour and a half setting it up before it's ready to use is so infuriating to me that it became a passion. And it's funny Just while we were having a little break here, I was talking to Ryan Hughes, my co-conspirator here. 我们现在有一台快上一万亿倍的电脑，你却还要花 42 分钟或一个半小时去设置，才能开始用，这让我愤怒到变成了一种执念。很好笑，就在我们刚才休息的那一会儿，我在跟 Ryan Hughes 说话，他是我这边的同伙。

We now have, we think, a line where we can create these special turbo images that are pre-made for specific computers because it relies on some knowledge of the hardware, like the Dell XPS. We're gonna make a Dell XPS turbo image that can install in about 12 seconds. A full Linux system installed in about 12 seconds. - That's incredible. - That obsession is what gives me this great satisfaction with using computers, that we do not accept things the way they are. 我们现在觉得，有一条路可以做出这些专门的 turbo 镜像，针对特定电脑预先做好，因为它依赖一些硬件知识，比如 Dell XPS。我们会做一份 Dell XPS 的 turbo镜像，大约 12 秒就能装完。一整套 Linux 系统，大约 12 秒装完。主持人：这太不可思议了。 DHH：正是这种执念，让我在用电脑时获得巨大的满足：我们不接受事情本来的样子。

And this is why this agent-accelerated reality that I now inhabit is so invigorating. Because I can look at these kinds of constraints and go, do you know what? Um,I could have stopped when we were at five minutes. That would already have been fast enough. This was the argument on X, right? Why do you keep going? Five minutes is fast enough. Okay, maybe for you, but for me, 12 seconds is a lot more fun. And I always try to think these first principles. 这也是我现在所处的、被 agent 加速的现实如此振奋的原因。因为我可以看着这类约束，然后说：你知道吗？我本可以在五分钟的时候停下来。那已经够快了。 X 上的争论就是这样，对吧？你为什么还要继续？五分钟已经够快了。好吧，对你也许够了，但对我来说，12 秒好玩得多。我总是试着按第一性原理来想。

Okay, in that machine, actually hit the Omarchy, key again, and then do speed. You'll see a list come up, and one of them is, like, disk speed. 好，在那台机器上，再按一次 Omarchy 键，然后输入 speed。你会看到一个列表，其中一项就是磁盘速度。

- Speed test, network speed, disk speed. - Disk speed. Do do that one, and then run it. So this is testing the performance of the built-in NVMe drive, and what are you getting? - Seven GB a second. - So seven gigabytes a second. That's how fast that drive is. Why can we not install a Linux distribution in one second? The Omarchy distribution is 5.8 gigabytes. 主持人：测速，网络速度，磁盘速度。 DHH：磁盘速度。做那一项，然后运行。所以这是在测内置 NVMe 硬盘的性能，你得到多少？主持人：每秒 7 GB。 DHH：所以是每秒 7 GB。那块盘就有这么快。我们为什么不能在一秒内装完一个 Linux 发行版？

If we can run at seven gig... Now, of course, you can't actually do that because the USB key is a lot slower than that, but you should be able to maximize the underlying physics and protocols that we're dealing with, and that's your goal. We gotta get all the way back down to that. - Yeah. I love that you're doing a Linux distribution. 'Cause I mean, you could be do... You could be building anything. Omarchy 发行版是 5.8 GB。如果我们能以每秒 7 GB 跑… …当然，你实际上做不到因为 U 盘比那慢得多，但你应该把我们面对的底层物理和协议推到极限，那就是你的目标。我们得一路压回到那个极限。主持人：对。我很喜欢你在做 Linux 发行版。因为我是说，你本可以做… …

But the fact that you're building a Linux distribution means you're rethinking about what a computer is, 'cause a operating system is the fundamental, like, the foundation of how ... you interact with a computer. - Yes. And it's been so stale. - Yeah, it has. - The macOS we have today is scarcely different from the macOS we had 10 years ago. In fact, it's worse in many ways because Apple continues to chokehold the control on users. 你本可以做任何东西。但你在做 Linux 发行版，意味着你在重新思考电脑是什么，因为操作系统是根本，是你与电脑交互的基础。 DHH：是的。而且它已经太陈旧了。主持人：对，确实是。 DHH：我们今天的 macOS，跟十年前的 macOS 几乎没有区别。事实上，很多方面更糟了，因为 Apple 继续把用户死死按住。

They don't want them to install software that they haven't already said good- ... to go for. They don't want users to reconfigure their hotkeys without doing it manually. They didn't want to change the 500-millisecond animation switching workspaces. It is an infuriatingly locked-down computer. Now, to Apple's credit, it's a pretty good computer for being locked down, but I don't want a locked-down computer. I wanna own my computer. 他们不想让用户安装他们还没点头放行的软件。他们不想让用户重新配置快捷键，除非手动去做。他们不愿意改掉切换工作区时那 500 毫秒的动画。这是一台令人愤怒的、被锁死的电脑。不过也得给 Apple 公道：作为一台被锁死的电脑，它相当不错。但我不想要一台被锁死的电脑。

Better yet, I wanna mutate my computer, and this is where the agentic age needs a new operating system. 我想拥有我的电脑。更好的是，我想改造我的电脑，而这正是 agentic 时代需要一套新操作系统的原因。

When you can vibe code whatever app comes to your mind, you should be able to vibe code your operating system. You should be able to change anything, how it looks, how it works, what panels are there, what are not there, and that requires Linux. As simple as that. There are no... None of the other two operating systems can deliver this. - But can you speak to the, I think somebody asked you, like, "Who the hell are you to think you could do better than Ubuntu?" For example. 当你能把脑子里冒出来的任何应用都 vibe code 出来时，你也应该能 vibe code 你的操作系统。你应该能改任何东西：它长什么样、怎么工作、有哪些面板、没有哪些面板，而这需要 Linux。就这么简单。没有… …另外两套操作系统都给不了这个。主持人：但你能不能谈谈，我想有人问过你，比如：「你凭什么觉得自己能做得比 Ubuntu 更好？

Or, or like, "Why are you doing it when Ubuntu is already pretty good?" And your answer was, "I thought I could do better." 」比如说。或者：「Ubuntu 已经相当不错了，你为什么还要做？ 」你的回答是：「我觉得我能做得更好。 」

So can you speak to, this was on X, can you speak to, like, where the craziness comes from, thinking that you as one person or maybe with Ryan, you could start building something that's going to be better than Ubuntu or Arch or any of this? - Well, I'll say that it didn't start quite as grandiose. When I got going with my Linux journey, I actually just started with Ubuntu, and I just built on top of it. 所以你能不能谈谈，这是在 X 上，你能不能谈谈，这种疯狂从哪来的：觉得你一个人，或者加上 Ryan，就能开始做出比 Ubuntu 或 Arch 或其中任何一套更好的东西？ DHH：我得说，一开始并没有那么宏大。我开始这段 Linux 旅程时，其实就是从 Ubuntu 起步，然后在上面往上做。

Here's a system that already does a lot of the things I wanted to do, and at least it's Linux. So can I just build on top of it and make it more modern, make it actually look good, and have the programs I wanna use? 这里有一套系统，已经能做我想做的很多事，而且至少它是 Linux。那我能不能就在上面往上做，让它更现代，让它真正好看，并带上我想用的程序？

I got, like, some version of that, and then I discovered that there's seven layers deeper you could go, and as, the closer you get to the metal, the closer you get to the kernel, the closer you get to the individual packages and so forth, the more freedom you discover. 我大概做出了某种版本，然后发现下面还能再挖七层，而且你越靠近金属，越靠近内核，越靠近一个个软件包之类的东西，你发现的自由就越多。

So as I discovered more and more freedom, I got more and more ambitious, and I realized, oh, surprise, I have strong opinions about how computers should work, how they should look, what programs should be installed, and whether they should take 42 minutes to install or 45 seconds. That's the current world record, by the way. 所以随着我发现越来越多的自由，我也变得越来越有野心，然后意识到：哦，真巧，我对电脑该怎么工作、该长什么样、该预装哪些程序、安装该花 42 分钟还是 45 秒，都有很强的主见。顺便说一下，45 秒是目前的世界纪录。

So if anyone installs Omarchy Quattro after this and can beat 45 seconds, take a screenshot, send it to me, and you'll be the new holder of the world record. - When, how long ago did you cross the 60-second mark? 所以如果有人在这期之后安装 Omarchy Quattro，能打破 45 秒，截张图发给我，你就是新的世界纪录保持者。主持人：你是多久以前跨过 60 秒这条线的？

- It's funny because it's like that the old limit on, what was it? It was a four-minute mile or something- - Yeah. Uh-huh - ... like that in 1952- ... that people thought was impossible for humans to beat. Then one guy beats it, and literally within the next few months, three more guys do, right? So we had this goal. I originally had the goal it was two minutes. DHH：很好笑，因为这就像那个老极限，是什么来着？是四分钟一英里之类的。主持人：对。嗯。 DHH：大概 1952 年那种，人们觉得人类不可能打破。然后一个人打破了，接下来几个月里，又有三个人做到了，对吧？所以我们有这个目标。我最初的目标是两分钟。

And then we beat two minutes, and I'm like, "Well, if we beat two minutes, why can't we beat one minute?" And I remember thinking like, "That'd be crazy. You can't install a modern operating system in one minute when they're all..." If the other ones are taking 42 minutes, right? Like Apple, full of a lot of smart people, like, it took 42 minutes, so that's gotta be the bar. No, no, it's not the bar because there's no speed limit. 然后我们打破了两分钟，我就想：「如果我们能打破两分钟，为什么不能打破一分钟？ 」我记得当时还在想：「那也太疯狂了。你不可能在一分钟内装完一套现代操作系统，何况它们全都… … 」如果别的系统要花 42 分钟，对吧？比如 Apple，里面有很多聪明人，花了 42 分钟，所以那一定就是标准。

Like, none of the things you take for granted are fixed pillars of reality in almost any case. Until you get down to the seven gigabytes per second that drive is able to transfer, you've not reached the limit yet, so you should just keep pushing. 不，不，那不是标准，因为没有速度上限。你习以为常的那些东西，几乎在任何情况下都不是现实里固定的支柱。在你碰到那块硬盘每秒能传 7 GB 之前，你还没到达极限，所以你就该继续往前推。

And of course, then it becomes a game in itself and a satisfaction itself. Every second I could shave off was an excitement. And when we broke the one-minute barrier, which was really only broken, I think, three weeks ago or something like that, maybe even two weeks ago, I just got crazy. 当然，然后它本身就变成一场游戏，本身就是一种满足。我每削掉一秒，都是一种兴奋。当我们打破一分钟壁垒时，那其实才刚打破，我想大概三周前，甚至可能两周前，我就彻底疯了。

And then I got a swarm of agents to run all these auto research loops of trying all these different theories on like, oh, if you change this thing, if you change that thing, what if you cut this out? What if you do things in parallel? What if while you were typing in your username, we start preloading packages into memory system, we can fire them in faster. And it becomes a fun game. And I think that's how you should think about product development. It should be fun. 然后我放了一群 agents 去跑这些自动研究循环，去试各种不同的理论，比如：哦，如果你改这个，如果你改那个，如果你把这个砍掉会怎样？如果并行做会怎样？如果在你输入用户名的时候，我们就开始把软件包预加载进内存系统，我们就能更快地打进去。然后它就变成一场有趣的游戏。我觉得产品开发就该这么想。它应该有趣。它应该有一点任性。

You should, it should be frivolous. It should be trying to overshoot the target and making it so much better than what it quote unquote needs to be. - Especially now because you can move so quickly and you can try so many different approaches because of the agents. - Yes, that just makes it more satisfying. But I think this was always true. If you look at the greatest Mercedes-Benz of all time, I think it was called the W126. 它应该试着打超目标，把东西做得比它所谓「需要」的好得多。主持人：尤其是现在，因为有了 agents，你可以动得那么快，也可以试那么多不同的路子。 DHH：是的，这只会让它更有满足感。但我觉得这一直都成立。如果你去看有史以来最伟大的 Mercedes-Benz，我想那是 W126。

I saw this wonderful documentary on it. It was steered by this guy who for years had worked in Mercedes' department for safety. And suddenly he gets put in charge for the whole S-Class project, and he just puts in all of it. This is where you got the auto-retending seat belts and washers on the headlights and everything. This car was so overbuilt for the market. It was unbelievable. But you look at that and go like, "Well, I want that." 我看过一部关于它的很棒的纪录片。主导它的那个人，多年来一直在 Mercedes 的安全部门工作。突然他被放去负责整个 S 级项目，然后他把所有东西都塞进去了。自动回卷安全带、大灯清洗器，所有那些，都是从这里来的。这辆车对市场来说造得太过了。简直难以置信。但你看着它就会想：「好，我就想要那个。」

In just the same way that you look at a mechanical watch and go, "It could go down to 100 meters?" Or I think Rolex has one that can go down to 4,000 meters, the, the deep ocean, the deep diver ocean ... or whatever it's called. No one outside of three people in the world, whoever buy that watch, will ever put it to the test. But don't you wanna be the kind of person who is a patron of people who wanna push the human race that much forward? 就像你看着一块机械表会想：「它能下到 100 米？ 」或者我想 Rolex 有一款能下到 4000 米，那个深海、深潜海洋… …反正叫什么来着。买那块表的人里，除了全世界大概三个人，谁都不会真去验证它。但你难道不想成为那种人：去赞助那些想把人类往前推这么远的人？我想要最快的车，去打破速度限制。

I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds. - So from the individual level, I admire those people. I think everybody should strive for that. 我想要能下到马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。我想要能在 60 秒以内装完的操作系统。主持人：所以从个人层面，我钦佩那些人。我觉得每个人都该朝那个方向努力。

But also the consequences of that we should mention, like the pursuit of excellence, even when the metrics seem to be frivolous, the maybe unexpected consequences of that is other kinds of excellences, discoveries, innovations, and all that kind of stuff that has nothing to do with the speed. - 100%. - It's discovery. It's nice to have the metric that you're chasing be the catalyst, the engine that drives innovation, because you'll just discover. 但我们也该提到那样做的后果：追求卓越，哪怕指标看起来有点任性，它也许会带来意想不到的后果，也就是其他种类的卓越、发现、创新，以及所有跟速度本身无关的东西。 DHH：百分百是。主持人：这就是发现。你追的那个指标，成为催化创新的引擎，这很好，因为你就是会发现。这也是你去月球、去火星的原因。

It's the same reason you go to the moon, you go to Mars. It's like, why? Who cares? Well, actually, the real thing is you'll discover a lot about chemical propulsion. You'll discover a lot about how humans can live for a long time in space. Maybe you'll discover whole new ways of doing solar energy in space or data centers in space or whatever the hell. - That's right. - All kinds of... Maybe you'll meet-- - That's right - ...aliens, but you never know. 就像，为什么？谁在乎？其实真正的事情是，你会发现很多关于化学推进的东西。你会发现很多关于人类如何在太空里长时间生活。也许你会发现在太空做太阳能、在太空建数据中心的全新方法，或者随便什么。 DHH：没错。主持人：各种各样的… …也许你会遇见。 DHH：没错。主持人：… …外星人，但你永远不知道。

But setting a goal and chasing it, especially when it's numerical, is really nice. - And setting a grand goal is even better. When you refuse to just do what's practical and you strive for what's slightly beyond plausible, that's when the magic happens. And we should be going all in on that. This is one of the reasons... And in fact, to some degree, this specific goal was motivated by seeing others do this. I mean, Elon is the singular individual in this conversation. 但设定一个目标并去追，尤其当它是数字时，真的很好。 DHH：设定一个宏大目标就更好了。当你拒绝只做实际的事，而去追求稍稍超出可信范围的东西，魔法就会发生。我们应当全力投入这件事。这也是原因之一… …事实上，在某种程度上，这个具体目标就是被别人这样做给激发出来的。我是说，Elon 是这场谈话里那个独一无二的人。

The guy is so out there in his goals. 这家伙的目标实在太狂。

They seem so preposterous at first glance. I've certainly considered them preposterous on many glances. And then you realize that they come true sometimes. Maybe not always on schedule, and so what? So what? So we didn't get the self-driving car on schedule. 第一眼看去，它们显得那么荒唐。我当然也多次觉得它们荒唐。然后你意识到，它们有时会成真。也许并不总是按期，那又怎样？那又怎样？所以自动驾驶汽车没有按期到来。

I gave Elon a lot of shit for that back in '17. But now it's here, and who would have gotten us here except for the person who thought it was possible in '17, who is so impatient with reality that the sheer force is just gonna propel that reality to the place he wants it to be. I think that's deeply inspiring, and we need these kinds of, goalposts to be moved. 2017 年我为此狠狠损过 Elon。但现在它来了，若不是那个在 2017 年就觉得这可能的人，还有谁能把我们带到这里？他对现实那么不耐烦，单凭那股力道就要把现实推到他想要的地方。我觉得这非常鼓舞人，我们需要这样的人去移动这些门柱。

We need someone to run the four-minute mile, so the rest of us realize, "Well, okay, but I guess I can run it quicker." That's what I try to strive for, and I really strive for with Omarchy because it's just more fun to live that way, to have high aspirations and ambitions. And I will say I've actually changed my mind on that a little bit. I spent quite a lot of time speaking the other book that there are a lot of people who don't actually need those ambitions. 我们需要有人去跑完四分钟一英里，好让其余人意识到：「好吧，那我想我也能跑得更快。 」这就是我努力追求的，也是我在 Omarchy 上真正追求的，因为那样活着就是更有趣，拥有很高的志向和野心。我得说，我在这一点上其实稍微改过想法。我花了不少时间在另一本书里讲：有很多人其实并不需要那些野心。而且我也… …那也是真的。

And I also-- That's also true. We don't want 8 billion Elons running around the world. Would be rather crazy, I think. But I've come to realize that for entrepreneurs,it's healthy to have suitable chunky goals. The idea of just running the Italian restaurant can't just be that. It should be maybe I just run the one Italian restaurant, but I make the best damn pizza possible. I make the most delicious Parmesan. 我们并不想要 80 亿个 Elon 在世界上跑来跑去。我想那会相当疯狂。但我逐渐意识到，对创业者来说，拥有分量足够大的目标是健康的。只是开一家意大利餐厅，不能就只是那样。也许我只开这一家意大利餐厅，但我要把披萨做到该死的最好。我要做出最美味的帕尔马干酪。

We have to strive for excellence to muster the motivation to keep going. 我们必须追求卓越，才能攒起继续走下去的动力。

- And yeah, to dare to think big like you could build a Linux- - Yes - ... distribution. Is there some stuff you remember about what it took to get us to be so fast? You mentioned a few things that were, the agents were discovering. - One of the things was to treat the ... lag of human input as an opportunity to preload. So-- Hmm ... there's five questions you answer when- Yeah ... you set up an Omarchy machine. So it's doing stuff in the background. 主持人：对，还要敢于往大处想，比如你可以去做一个 Linux。 DHH：是的。主持人：… …发行版。你还记得，为了快成这样，当时做了些什么吗？你提到过几件 agents 发现的事。 DHH：其中一件，是把人输入时的延迟当成预加载的机会。所以… …嗯… …你设置一台 Omarchy 机器时要回答五个问题。

We're doing stuff in the background. And that was one of the things I didn't even consider, which is, I mean, the oldest trick in the book. All sorts of video games for a long time have done this, where you let the player interact with something, and then you do preloading and so forth in the background. So it's an age-old technique, but I just hadn't thought about it for an installer. 对。所以它在后台做事。我们在后台做事。而这是我当时甚至没有考虑过的事，其实这是最老套的招数。各种各样的电子游戏很久以来都在这么做：让玩家先跟某个东西互动，然后在后台做预加载之类的事。所以这是古老的技术，我只是没想到用在安装程序上。我原以为，先问用户一些关于密码、用户名、时区之类的问题，然后再开始干活，而实际上，你可以预先加载那些。

I thought, first you ask the user some questions about their password and their username and their time zone and so forth, and then you do the work, when, in fact, you could preload that. Now, the other things were just a bunch of other tweaks to how the installer itself was doing things in a certain order. Some of them was also just shrinking it. 另外还有一堆别的调整，改的是安装程序自己按某种顺序做事的方式。其中一些也只是把它缩小。上一版 Omarchy 是 7.5 GB，我们现在省下来的很多时间， literally 就是在解压已经压缩过的软件包。

The last version of Omarchy was 7.5 gigabytes, and a lot of the time we're down to now is literally decompressing compressed package files. That's the bulk of what is on the ISO, and that's the bulk of the install time. So by shrinking it down to, I think we're at 5.85 gigabytes now, a pretty chunky reduction,it almost literally translated one-to-one, and I did some really interesting things there. ISO 上大部分都是这个，安装时间的大部分也是这个。所以把它缩到，我想我们现在是 5.85 GB，这是一次相当可观的削减，几乎是一对一地反映到时间上，我在那里还做了一些很有意思的事。

So Omarchy uses the JetBrains font, which is an awesome font, beautiful font, and actually a font I didn't like at first glance, but then it was the only font I could get to look perfect in Mitchell Hashimoto's Ghostty. Ghostty, for whatever reason, did not wanna render my beloved Bitstream Vera Sans just the way I was used to it. Mm-hmm. But it rendered this JetBrains font perfectly, so I switched over. Omarchy 用的是 JetBrains 字体，非常棒的字体，很美的字体，其实我第一眼并不喜欢，但它是我能在 Mitchell Hashimoto 的 Ghostty 里看起来完美的唯一字体。不知道为什么，Ghostty 就是不愿意把我心爱的 Bitstream Vera Sans 渲成我习惯的样子。嗯。但它把这套 JetBrains 字体渲得很完美，所以我换过去了。

But it... The standard package for JetBrains font on Arch is 200 megabytes because it includes all these variations and all these subtypes and whatever. And I realized, like, we're not using any of that. We're using the monospace version in this one Nerd, uh- Yep... font patched edition. Do you know how big that is? I think it's 16 megabytes. Hmm. So I simply just came up with a new package, the slim version- Mm-hmm... of the JetBrains package. 但是… … Arch 上 JetBrains 字体的标准包有 200 MB，因为它包含了所有这些变体、所有这些子类型，不管什么。然后我意识到，我们根本没用那些。我们用的是等宽版本，而且是这一个 Nerd Font 补丁版。你知道它有多大吗？我想是 16 MB。嗯。所以我干脆做了一个新包，瘦身版——嗯…

Nice. And there, right there, I saved 180 megabytes. I just went through and did that a bunch of times. We did that with the NVIDIA drivers too. So the NVIDIA drivers, when they came straight off the, I think the Arch repo, were not compressed with the most extreme form of compression, which I think called ZSTD, which is a really slow form of compression. … JetBrains 包的瘦身版。漂亮。就在那里，我一下子省了 180 MB。我就这样一遍遍做。 NVIDIA 驱动我们也这样处理过。 NVIDIA 驱动直接从我记得是 Arch 仓库拿下来时，并没有用最极端的压缩，我想叫 ZSTD，那是一种非常慢的压缩。

It's slow to create the archive, but if you're building a package- Hmm... you have all the time in the world if that means you can then shrink the ISO. 做归档很慢，但如果你是在构建一个软件包… …嗯… …你有的是时间，只要这意味着你能把 ISO 缩小。

So on just the two NVIDIA packages, I think we saved 200 megabytes. Mm-hmm. So what I loved about this was I imagined myself being a car designer at McLaren. So McLaren makes some of the lightest super sports cars in the world right now, and they are absolutely obsessed with shaving every damn last gram off their cars. That's why even a new 750S McLaren is just way lighter than the competition. 所以仅在两个 NVIDIA 包上，我想我们就省了 200 MB。嗯。我喜欢这一点的原因是，我把自己想象成 McLaren 的汽车设计师。 McLaren 现在在做世界上一些最轻的超级跑车，他们绝对执着于从车上削掉每一克。这就是为什么即便是新的 McLaren 750S，也比竞争对手轻得多。

They use a carbon fiber monocoque, and that helps them over like Ferrari, for example, that's uses aluminum. But they also just have this obsession with weight, and I would see this interview with the McLaren folks talking to some journalist just going over, "Yeah, we saved, uh- ... 370 grams- Yeah ... off that one." And I just went, "Wait, what? There's someone on a car that weighs maybe 1,040 kilos or 1,380 or something. They're s- They're worrying about 370 grams?" Yeah. 他们用碳纤维单体车身，这让他们比比如 Ferrari 更有优势，Ferrari 用的是铝。但他们也对重量有这种执念。我会看到 McLaren 的人接受记者采访，就在过：「对，我们在那一项上省了… … 370 克。 」然后我就想：「等等，什么？有人在一辆大概1040 公斤或 1380 公斤的车上，在操心 370 克？ 」对。多么执着的疯子。嗯。

What obsessed maniacs. Hmm. I love them. Yeah. I want that in my life. I want a McLaren- ... just for that reason. So I thought in that moment as I was shaving individual megabytes off the packages, man, I'm kinda like a McLaren car developer here, even though- Yeah ... I mean, we haven't even completed that work. 我爱他们。对。我希望生活里有这个。我想要一台 McLaren，就因为这个理由。所以当我正从软件包上一个 MB 一个 MB 地削的那一刻，我想，嘿，我有点像 McLaren 的汽车开发者了，尽管… …对… …我是说，我们甚至还没做完那项工作。

The package could shrink even more. But this is actually this other conflict that we've had with Omarchy and the traditional Linux community is bloat. Mm-hmm. This idea that it's actually not kosher in certain circles to ship with pre-installed software because who are you to make decisions about what programs people should use? And I'm like, "Dude, it's in the fucking name. It's called Omarchy because the Oma part is short for omakase, which literally means chef's choice. 这个包还能再缩小。但这也正是我们跟传统 Linux 社区在 Omarchy 上发生的另一场冲突：膨胀。嗯。有一种想法是，在某些圈子里，预装软件其实不太体面，因为你凭什么替别人决定该用哪些程序？而我的想法是：「兄弟，这他妈就写在名字里。它叫 Omarchy，因为 Oma 这部分是」 omakase 的缩写，字面意思就是主厨精选。

I'm the chef. I'm making the choices, and this is the collection of applications I think is awesome," which by the way has a video editor. It ships with OBS- Mm-hmm ... to do your recording. It's just in there. Yeah. OBS is pre-installed. Nice. Kdenlive is a video editor, timeline editor, which is great. I edit all my videos with that. And then I made my own clip editor. You talked about the thing with syncing up. 我就是主厨。选择由我来做，而这就是我认为很棒的那一套应用。 」顺便说一句，里面有视频编辑器。它预装了 OBS。嗯。用来录音录像。就在里面。对。 OBS 是预装的。漂亮。 Kdenlive 是视频编辑器，时间线编辑器，很好用。我所有视频都用它剪。然后我又做了自己的片段编辑器。你刚才谈到过同步那件事。

Yeah. I had this thing with clips, so I would do a podcast or whatever. I need a clip for X. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of a hassle to use Kdenlive or other- Mm-hmm ... timeline editors, so I made Omacut. Mm-hmm. Omacut is included too. Omacut, cool. It's just for making clips, and you can drive the whole thing with keyboard. So you can go to just the right time mark- Mm-hmm ... and then you can hit Control + Space. Hmm. It moves the clip line to that line. 对。我当时有做 clips 的需求，所以我会录播客之类的。我需要给 X 做一段 clip。嗯。用 Kdenlive 或其他时间线编辑器有点麻烦，所以我做了 Omacut。嗯。 Omacut 也包含在内。 Omacut，酷。它就是用来做 clips 的，整套都可以用键盘操作。所以你可以走到正好的时间点。嗯。然后按 Control + Space。

Then you go to- Nice ... the end of the clip, and you hit Alt + Space, and it moves the end line. Nice. And then you hit Control + S, and it saves. Nice. I can make clips so damn fast now with Omacut. It's amazing. But it has all the software on it. It has Neovim on it. It has Herder on it. It has Tmux. It has a terminal. It has a bunch of themes. It has a bunch of background images, the best ones I could pick out. That takes up some space. 嗯。它会把 clip 的起点移到那条线上。然后你走到。漂亮。 clip 的结尾，按 Alt + Space，它会移动终点线。漂亮。然后按 Control + S，就保存了。漂亮。我现在用 Omacut 做 clips 快得要命。太神奇了。但是它上面有全部软件。有 Neovim。有 Herdr。有 tmux。有终端。有一堆主题。

It should because this is not supposed to be this just barren landscape where you have to reconstruct everything. Mm-hmm. This is supposed to be a productive system the minute you unpack it. What is it built in? So it's actually mostly built in Bash for the Linux configuration part. Right. Bash is a great language for that. It is made for that really, for system administration. It also has its limitations. 有一堆背景图，都是我能挑出来的最好的。那会占一些空间。就该占，因为这不该是一片荒地，让你把一切重新搭起来。嗯。开箱那一刻，它就该是一套能干活的系统。它是用什么写的？所以 Linux 配置这部分，其实大多是用 Bash 写的。对。 Bash 很适合干这个。它本来就是为这个做的，为系统管理。

You should not build everything in Bash - How are agents with generating Bash? Pretty good? - Oh, amazing. Except for one thing, and I have to smack the agents over the back of the head every single time I catch it, and remind it to look at the agent's MD file, because I will have an instruction in there not to make early exits. 它也有局限。你不该什么都用 Bash 来建。主持人：agents 生成 Bash 怎么样？还不错吧？ DHH：哦，惊人地好。除了一件事，每次我抓到，都得在 agents 后脑勺拍一下，提醒它去看 AGENTS.md 文件，因为我会在里面写一条指令：不要提前退出。

The agents love to have preconditions instead of fully expanded conditionals. I like something that says, "If this, then do that." Agents like to have precondition or exit, another precondition or exit. And then it falls down to the final thing it actually wants to do. I hate that style. agents 很爱用前置条件，而不是完全展开的条件判断。我喜欢「如果这样，就做那样」。 agents 喜欢：前置条件不满足就退出，又一个前置条件不满足就退出。然后才落到它真正想做的那件事。

So except for that, it's gotten shockingly, dramatically, awesomely good, to the point where when we talked last time, we talked about how I would ask the agent for a Bash thing, and then I would type it in myself, and I kinda wouldn't remember. And then I took the effort to make sure that all that competence wasn't draining out of my fingers, so I actually learned how to write Bash myself, and now I'm not writing any Bash myself. 我讨厌那种风格。所以除了这一点，它已经好到令人震惊、戏剧性、简直美妙，到了这种程度：我们上次聊的时候，还在说我会向 agent 要一段 Bash，然后自己敲进去，而且我其实记不太住。后来我特意花力气，确保那些能力不会从手指里流失，所以我真的自己学会了写 Bash，而现在我自己完全不写 Bash 了。

I have not written any Bash myself for probably a couple months, because the agents have just gotten so good, that if you give them the few pointers on style, and occasionally put pushback on complexity... This is... I tweeted about this a couple of days ago. 大概有几个月，我自己一行 Bash 都没写，因为 agents 已经好到这种地步：你只要给它们几点风格上的提示，偶尔在复杂度上顶回去… …这… …我几天前刚发过推。

It blows my mind how often an agent can do something, say it's done, have the work reviewed by another agent- ... they say it's done, and then I go like, "Eh, looks a little too complicated for me." And then it'll go like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. I totally overcomplicated this," and it'll cut it in half. I'm like, "Couldn't it just do this, like, from the outset?" And then someone else reminded me, humans are the same way. 它让我震惊的是，有多经常一个 agent 能做完一件事，说做完了，再让另一个 agent 审查这工作，它们也说做完了，然后我却会说：「呃，对我来说有点太复杂了。 」然后它会说：「哦，对，你是对的。你是对的。我完全搞复杂了。 」然后把它砍成一半。我就想：「它就不能一开始就这样做吗？

If you work on something and someone else reviews it and they just are like, "Eh, it looks a little complicated," quite often you're able to go like, "Ah, you're right." - See, that, that just... Those little indications to me show that the programmer is still needed, that intuition, 'cause I think, what, what did you say? I have a sense of the landscape of the code. - When I build something like Omarchy, I, I do look at the code. I look at the shape. 」然后有人提醒我，人类也是这样。如果你做完一件事，别人来审查，他们只是说：「呃，看起来有点复杂，」很多时候你也能说：「啊，你是对的。 」主持人：你看，这些小小的迹象对我来说就说明，程序员仍然被需要，那种直觉，因为我想，你说过什么来着？我对代码的地貌有感觉。 DHH：当我在做像 Omarchy 这样的东西时，我确实会看代码。

And I look at the proportions. Like, I don't have to chisel everything myself anymore. This is, again, when I'm flattering myself for... Not one moment I'm a McLaren audio,uh auto engineer, and the next moment I'm a da Vinci, working with his whole studio of students- ... who are doing all the chiseling on the, the fine marble, right? And he goes like, "Ah, no, the proportions are not quite right." That's how it feels working with agents now. 我看形状。我也看比例。就像，我不必再亲自把每一刀都凿出来。这又是我在恭维自己… …前一刻我还是 McLaren 的汽车工程师，下一刻我又成了达芬奇，带着整间工作室的学生，由他们在精细的大理石上凿刻，对吧？然后他说：「啊，不，比例还不太对。 」现在跟 agents 工作的感觉就是这样。

That I can give feedback like an editor. That, do you know what? I'm not gonna write everything myself, but I can tell you when the argument doesn't land. I can tell you when the shape isn't proportional to the problem, or when it just feels like it's too complicated. And shockingly often, it just works. 我能像编辑一样给反馈。就是，你知道吗？我不会把所有东西都自己写，但我能告诉你论点什么时候落不下来。我能告诉你形状跟问题是否不成比例，或者它什么时候就是显得太复杂。而且令人震惊的是，这经常就管用。

It's like the early days, where the jokes was, "Don't make mistakes." I don't think you have to tell the agents that anymore, because now the harnesses are so good, they run automated testing. They get that feedback. But you actually do have to tell them, "Make it simpler." - Do you use voice at all for the interaction? Or are you... How much are you typing? How much are you- - I type the whole thing. 就像早期那样，当时的笑话是「别犯错」。我觉得你不必再跟 agents 说这个了，因为现在 harness 已经很好，它们会跑自动化测试。它们能拿到那种反馈。但你确实得跟它们说：「做得更简单。 」主持人：你交互时会用语音吗？还是你… …你打字有多少？

I actually, in Omarchy's built-in Voxtype- ... Audio transcription, and it's actually really good. I just find that I don't think that way, and it surprised myself that I don't like to talk to the computer. Uh, I like when I'm in the car, but when I'm in front of the keyboard, I just wanna type. I also just love typing. Are you using the voice? - I'm an introvert who doesn't like social interaction- ... or speaking. 你有多少是。 DHH：我全程打字。其实 Omarchy 内置了 Voxtype，音频转写，而且确实很好。我只是发现我不是那样想问题的，这让我自己都吃惊：我不喜欢对着电脑说话。我在车里的时候喜欢，但当我坐在键盘前，我就只想打字。而且我就是爱打字。你在用语音吗？

And- - I think that's part of mine too. - But, like, for me, for some reason, voice is really powerful. I want to give this... So I, I run with this thing. It's called Plaud. So I, I just hook it up on my, you know on my T-shirt here. You press a button, it starts recording. And this is actually more, in terms of flow, much better experience than behind a computer. And I, uh, save, well, usually it's agent gen- generated problems that I wanna really talk through. 主持人：我是内向的人，不喜欢社交，也不喜欢说话。而且。 DHH：我想这也是我的一部分。主持人：但对我来说，不知道为什么，语音真的很有力量。我想把这个… …所以我带着这个东西跑。它叫 Plaud。所以我就把它挂在，你知道，挂在我这件 T 恤上。按一下按钮，它就开始录音。就心流而言，这其实比坐在电脑后面体验好得多。

And so I write, I speak a long prompt,like, and a lot of it, it's like stream of consciousness reasoning. So I'll sometimes just change my mind about a design, but all of that is in there, and then I have an LLM that processes that. With Plaud, there's a, obviously an API. You can grab it, transcribe it, clean up the transcript, 'cause you, you want it to be... 'Cause I'm referring to files. 然后我保存，通常是 agent 生成的问题，我想真正讲清楚。所以我写，我口述一个很长的 prompt，而且其中很多像是意识流式的推理。所以我有时会中途改掉一个设计想法，但那些全在里面，然后我有一个 LLM 去处理它。 Plaud 显然有 API。

I'm referring to technical concepts, like files and functions- ... and so on, that you wanna make sure the transcription, the- ... the speech-to-text gets correctly. So you wanna have a dictionary. You want it to be aware of the code base when you process the files. And then you have this gigantic thing that's often 10, 15, 20 minute me discussing the full design, and I find that to be really, really powerful. 你可以把它拿下来，转写，清理逐字稿，因为你希望它… …因为我会提到文件。我会提到技术概念，比如文件和函数等等，你要确保转写、那个语音转文字能转对。所以你需要一本词典。你希望它在处理文件时了解代码库。然后你就有了这坨巨大的东西，经常是我花 10、15、20 分钟讨论完整设计，我发现这非常、非常有力量。

Because it doesn't have the problem overs- of overspecification because of how much stream of consciousness thinking the system has about what you're imagining. And this is really good for the early steps of a design. Like, if I wanted to build Omarchy from scratch, the first stages, I talk through. It could be an hour. There's been prompts that I had for an hour, and I'm just running and- - That's amazing - ... and speaking. 因为它没有过度指定的问题，因为系统对你正在想象的东西，拥有那么多意识流式的思考。而这在设计的早期步骤里特别好。比如，如果我想从零做 Omarchy，最初那些阶段，我会讲出来。可能是一个小时。我有过长达一小时的 prompt，我就一边跑一边。 DHH：那太惊人了。主持人：…

I highly recommend people try a voice-based- - So- - ... speaking for prolonged periods of time. - I haven't actually- - As opposed to very specific - ... I haven't, yeah, I haven't used it that, and maybe that's how I'm using it wrong. I try to just type or speak two sentences, and then I get a little frustrated that I could've typed that just as fast maybe. …一边说。我非常建议大家试试基于语音的。 DHH：所以。主持人：… …长时间地讲。 DHH：我其实还没有。主持人：而不是非常具体的DHH：… …我还没有，对，我还没用成那样，也许这就是我用错的地方。我试过只打或只说两句话，然后有点沮丧，觉得也许打字也一样快。

But I have not tried this whole thing of just talking continuously for 20 minutes. - And especially you because you speak very fast. - Yeah. No, I could see it. I think because the reason I've been, I've been trying to do it for things like replying to emails,and it got to a point where I thought it could help. And it sort of did, but then it would make a small mistake, and I'd have to correct the mistake. 但我没有试过连续讲 20 分钟这种事。主持人：尤其是你，因为你说话非常快。 DHH：对。不，我能想象。我想因为我之所以一直在试，是想用在回复邮件这类事上，到了一个阶段，我以为它能帮忙。某种程度上也确实帮了，但随后它会出一点小错，我就得改这个错。

But if you're doing stream of conscious to an LLM who doesn't care about all this other stuff anyway- ... that probably works way better. - There's two things you have to do. One, okay, you have the raw audio, transcribes it. I use ElevenLabs for transcription. They're probably the best speech-to-text model. There's still mistakes there, so you need to have a prompt that has a- access to a dictionary and to a lot of- - How do you build the dictionary? 但如果你是把意识流交给一个反正也不在乎那些旁支的 LLM，那大概会好用得多。主持人：你得做两件事。第一，好，你有原始音频，把它转写出来。我用 ElevenLabs 做转写。它们大概是最好的语音转文字模型。那里仍然会有错，所以你需要一个 prompt，让它能访问一本词典，以及很多。 DHH：你怎么建这本词典？

- First of all, there's a dictionary of terms that are relevant to you. Then have it aware of... So you have an agent that looks through, when you're talking about code, looks through your entire code base for key terms that you use often. 主持人：首先，有一本跟你相关的术语词典。然后让它了解… …所以你有一个 agent，在你谈代码时，会扫过整个代码库，找出你常用的关键术语。

Also, when we're talking about messaging, Gmail, and WhatsApp, and so on, it's aware of all the people and common terms that you get wrong. - You've really gone deep in this. - That, to me, is a problem that needs to be solved- ... because, uh, one of the issues you probably have speech to text is that it makes mistakes sometimes. - Correct. Then I can't use it for dictating an email. - Right. 另外，当我们谈消息、Gmail、WhatsApp 之类时，它了解所有人和你经常转错的常见词。 DHH：你在这件事上挖得很深。主持人：对我来说，这是一个需要被解决的问题。 … …因为，语音转文字大概会有的一个问题，就是它有时会出错。 DHH：没错。那我就不能用它来口述邮件。

If it never makes mistakes, you- - Then it would be more appealing. - Yeah, and you are okay being not perfectly real time, actually. You're okay waiting five seconds- ... potentially. I don't know what your use case is. I'm okay waiting five seconds- ... 10 seconds for it to process everything. 主持人：对。如果它从不出错，你。 DHH：那它就会更有吸引力。主持人：对，而且你其实可以接受并非完全实时。你愿意等五秒，有可能。我不知道你的使用场景是什么。我愿意等五秒、十秒，让它把所有东西处理完。

- You gotta vibe code this into an app that does all of this such that- ... it just works. - I think I mentioned to you offline that it's very surprising to me that, translation is not done perfectly. Speech-to-speech translation. - It seems like you've gotten much closer to the best of what's possible by putting all these things together. - But, you know, when you're shipping that kind of stuff, you do have to start thinking about latency. DHH：你得把这些 vibe code 成一个应用，把这一切都做进去，让它直接就能用。主持人：我想我私下跟你提过，翻译竟然还没被做得完美，这让我非常吃惊。语音到语音的翻译。DHH：看起来你把这些东西拼在一起，已经更接近可能做到的最好。主持人：但是，你知道，当你要把那种东西真正交付出去时，你就得开始考虑延迟。

- Don't let the perfect be the enemy of good. I mean, if you're suddenly enabling something people wouldn't be doing before at all, it's okay to take five seconds longer. I think this is one of the areas that Steve Jobs was so good, that he realized, like, the first iPhone was terrible in all sorts of ways, right? Absolutely horrendously slow data connection, very underpowered, all the things. But the product was so compelling that it just didn't matter. DHH：别让完美成为够用的敌人。我是说，如果你突然让人们能做以前根本不会做的事，多花五秒是可以的。我觉得这是 Steve Jobs 非常擅长的领域之一，他意识到，第一代 iPhone 在各种方面都很糟，对吧？数据连接慢得可怕，性能很弱，所有那些。但产品本身太有吸引力了，所以那些都不重要。

You'd be shipping too late if you waited until everything was just right, just perfect. If you're solving a problem that people currently don't have a solution for, they're willing to give it five seconds. If you're in a competitive market, yeah, okay, it's different. But that means the problem's already solved, and you don't need to solve it. - Mm-hmm. Well, I do think there's a few... So, like, Whisper Flow is really good. 如果你等一切都刚好、都完美，你就会交付得太晚。如果你解决的是人们目前还没有解决方案的问题，他们愿意给你五秒。如果你处在一个竞争市场里，好吧，那不一样。但那意味着问题已经被解决了，你不必再去解决。主持人：嗯。我确实觉得有几个… …比如 Whisper Flow 就很好。已经有几个人在语音转文字这件事上站了出来。

A few people have stepped up that speech-to-text thing. - Yeah. Yeah, we're using Voxtype. But others have- - Uh, Vo-Voxtype is open source? DHH：对。对，我们在用 Voxtype。但其他人也。主持人：Voxtype 是开源的吗？

- It is. It's just using one of the open models. I forget which parrot model it's using or something like that. It works quite well for short commands, so I have used it for that. Uh, I think you just hold down F9- ... and it starts a dictation. - Oh, so it's already in there? - You just have to get online. It'll offer you to install- - Got it - ... the Voxtype package. - Got it. DHH：是的。它只是在用其中一个开源模型。我忘了它用的是哪种 parrot 模型，之类的。它对短命令相当好用，所以我用过它干这个。我想你只要按住 F9，它就开始听写。主持人：哦，所以它已经在里面了？ DHH：你只要连上网络。它会提示你安装。主持人：明白了。 DHH：… … Voxtype 这个包。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because the Voxtype package includes a model that's 150 megabytes, and I was like, "Ah." - Yep, yep. - "I don't know if I can carry that." So- - Yep - ... we don't have that in there by default, but we have the option set up. And I actually just yesterday was thinking we really need to combine all of these things. So Omarchy Quattro is truly amazing as a malleable operating system where you can add functionality to it just by talking to your agent. 主持人：明白了。对对对。 DHH：因为 Voxtype 包里带了一个 150 MB 的模型，当时我就想：「啊。 」主持人：对对。 DHH：「我不知道能不能带着这个。 」所以。主持人：对。 DHH：… …我们默认不带它，但选项已经设好了。其实就在昨天，我还在想，我们真的需要把所有这些东西合在一起。所以 Omarchy Quattro 作为一套可塑的操作系统真的很惊人，你只要跟你的 agent 说话，就能给它加功能。

But that's exactly what we should be doing. There's a lot of people who would find it very natural just to talk to their computer and say, "Hey,can you make me a stock panel? I wanna track Apple and Dell," and just see the agent go off through, entirely through voice, both in terms of the input and in terms of the output, and then your operating system just changes. This was the vision of Iron Man and Jarvis and- - Yeah - ... bespoke applications that just appear magically. 而这正是我们该做的。很多人会觉得，直接对着电脑说话非常自然，说：「嘿，你能不能给我做一个股票面板？我想跟踪 Apple 和 Dell，」然后看着 agent 完全通过语音出发，输入是语音，输出也是语音，接着你的操作系统就变了。这就是钢铁侠和 Jarvis 的愿景，以及。主持人：对。 DHH：… …

I'm thinking the area of AI I find truly intriguing are these live gaming models, I don't know if you've seen that, where the AI's inventing literally the next frame, but you can actually play the game. And I think if they're able to do that, why can't we do that with our operating system? Why can't we just talk to it and ask it to be a different way or change, and it'll all just change? 量身定制的应用就这样魔术般出现。我在想，我真正觉得迷人的那块 AI 领域，是这些实时游戏模型，不知道你有没有见过：AI 实际上在发明下一帧，但你真的能玩这个游戏。我觉得如果它们能做到那个，我们为什么不能对操作系统做同样的事？为什么我们不能直接跟它说话，让它变成另一种样子或做出改变，然后一切就都变了？

I think this, by the way, is one of the other breakthroughs that is going to lead to the total domination of Linux. The agents have taken all the hardship out of diagnosing Linux systems and turned the fact that Linux produces these overly specific, totally arcane error messages into its greatest advantage. 顺便说一句，我觉得这也是将导致 Linux 全面主导的另一项突破。 agents 已经把诊断 Linux 系统的所有苦差事拿走了，并把 Linux 会打出那些过于具体、完全晦涩的错误信息这件事，变成了它最大的优势。

When Linux has an issue, the agent can take that very specific error message that makes no sense to a normal human and correlate it with the fact that the agent was pre-trained on 40 million lines of Linux code, so it knows exactly where to look and dial it down. - Yeah. 当 Linux 出问题时，agent 可以拿起那条对普通人毫无意义的、非常具体的错误信息，再把它跟这件事对应起来：这个 agent 在 4000 万行 Linux 代码上预训练过，所以它确切知道该往哪看，并把它收窄。主持人：对。

- I have not had a single problem on my Linux machine since the beginning of this year that an agent could not diagnose. That was not true a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago, I was still searching on forums- ... to find answers to esoteric questions. Now the agents know the source code of not just the Linux operating system, but every single piece of software I have on that box. The agent has access to the source code of all of it. DHH：从今年年初到现在，我的 Linux 机器上没有一个问题是 agent 诊断不了的。一年半前还不是这样。一年半前，我还在论坛上搜索，去找那些冷僻问题的答案。现在 agents 不仅知道 Linux 操作系统的源代码，也知道我那台机器上每一件软件的源代码。 agent 能访问所有这些源代码。事实上，有一件事我是刚好在我们发布之前做进去的。

In fact, this was one thing I built in just before we, uh, we shipped. So once you set up your default agent- ... Omarchy Quattro has a crash watcher. If any app on your machine crashes, it'll pop up a little thing, ask you whether you want your AI to diagnose the problem. - Yeah. That's amazing. - Unbelievable. I've seen things where there's an error in some subsystem. Some, some... Not even Linux, just some app I installed. 所以一旦你设好默认 agent，Omarchy Quattro 就有一个崩溃监视器。如果你机器上任何应用崩溃，它会弹出一个小东西，问你要不要让 AI 诊断这个问题。主持人：对。这太惊人了。 DHH：难以置信。我见过有些情况，某个子系统里有错误。某个… …甚至不是 Linux，只是我装的某个应用。

The agents start digging through the logs and looks up systemd log. Then it checks out the damn source code. Of the application that crashed, pins down that it's in this Rust file line 472 that there's an unbounded, unwrapped variable that overflowed or whatever it is. Then offers you whether you wanna file a bug report with all this detail. I'll give you one amazing anecdote. So I was working with this guy JDX, who's working on mise. agents 开始翻日志，去查 systemd 日志。然后它把那该死的源代码 check 出来。崩溃的那个应用的源代码，锁定是在这个 Rust 文件第 472 行，有一个未加边界、未 unwrap 的变量溢出了，或者不管是什么。然后问你要不要带着所有这些细节去提 bug report。我给你讲一个惊人的轶事。当时我在跟JDX 这个人合作，他在做 mise。

This, this package manager for fast-moving development tools. This is how we manage all the agent software and so forth. Normal package managers are not built to be updated seven times a day. And all of these agent harnesses are updated about seven times a day, so we needed an out-of-band package manager, and mise just turns out to be perfect for this. Anyway, it had a small bug. 这是给快速变动的开发工具用的包管理器。我们就是这样管理所有 agent 软件之类的。普通包管理器不是按一天更新七次来设计的。而这些 agent harness 大约一天更新七次，所以我们需要一个带外的包管理器，mise 恰好完美适合这个。总之，它有一个小 bug。

There was some race condition which agents are very good at finding because when you start running multiple agents at the same time, they will suss out all these race conditions you have in your underlying infrastructure that was never triggered by a human trying to do manual thing. So it finds this issue, right? 有某种竞态条件，agents 非常擅长找这种东西，因为当你开始同时跑多个 agents 时，它们会把底层基础设施里所有那些人类手工操作从未触发过的竞态条件都揪出来。所以它找到了这个问题，对吧？我跟 agent 说：「嘿，你能不能把这个作为 bug report 发到 JDX 的 GitHub 上？

I tell the agent, "Hey, can you post this as a bug report to JDX's GitHub?" And unfortunately, right before that, I had had to do a QA run on Omarchy itself with eight different agents. It had found 28 real issues- ... that it needed to file. Well, it went to GitHub and tried to file all 28 issues at the same time, which it did in about, uh, I don't know, 12 seconds. GitHub, not unreasonably, marked that as probable spam and banned- ... my Omarchy bot. 」不幸的是，就在那之前，我刚用八个不同的 agents 对 Omarchy 本身做了一轮 QA。它发现了 28 个真正的问题，需要去提交。结果它跑到 GitHub，试图同时提交全部 28 个 issue，大概在，我不知道，12 秒内就提交完了。 GitHub 并非没有道理地把它标成可能的垃圾信息，并封禁了我的 Omarchy bot。

And then I couldn't do that. So I was blocked from the bot having access to GitHub, so I just told it, "Hey, do you know what? Just email JDX. Here's his email address." I had already set it up with hey.com- ... an email address. We have a CLI that's in beta right now. So I set it up with that so it can send to email. That's how it gives me reports about outstanding issues and PRs. 然后我就没法那样做了。所以 bot 被挡住，无法访问 GitHub，我就跟它说：「嘿，你知道吗？直接给 JDX 发邮件。这是他的邮箱。 」我已经用 hey.com 给它设好了一个邮箱地址。我们有一个目前还在 beta 的 CLI。所以我用那个设好，让它能发邮件。

So it sends, um, JDX this email about the bug it found, and he was like, "Wait, this is the first time I've gotten a bug report in unreleased software." Because it had downloaded the source code to mise, saw that he had already fixed the bug, but that it would not fix the problem entirely in software they had not shipped yet. Pinpointed the problem, and he was like, "Damn it- ... I got a bug report before we even cut a release." - That's amazing. 它就是这样给我发未完成问题和 PR 的报告。于是它给 JDX 发了这封关于它找到的 bug 的邮件，而他说：「等等，这是我第一次在未发布的软件里收到 bug report。 」因为它下载了 mise 的源代码，看到他已经修了这个 bug，但那还修不掉他们还没发布的软件里的全部问题。它把问题钉死了，然后他说：「该死… …我们还没切发布，我就收到 bug report 了。

That's amazing - ... believable AGI levels of mind-blowing stuff. - And that was actually, if you remember, that was an open question whether AI systems could debug well. That was kinda the thought that, yeah, sure, they can write code, but can they find issues and- - They are so incredibly good at this, and this is actually interesting because I was on the perhaps same side of that, a little skeptical about can it reason about all these things. 」主持人：这太惊人了。这太惊人了。 DHH：… …到了令人难以置信的 AGI 级别的震撼。主持人：而这其实是，如果你还记得，当时有一个未决问题：AI 系统能不能很好地调试。当时的想法大概是，好吧，它们能写代码，但它们能找到问题并。 DHH：它们在这件事上好得不可思议，而这其实很有意思，因为我大概也站在那一边，对它能不能推理所有这些事情有点怀疑。

And Mikhail, who's the CTO at Shopify, ran a scientific study on this. They had... And this was, I think, late last year or early this year, where he had agents go back through all the incidents, both outages and, and other problems that Shopify had had in production, trace that back to the PR that was merged, and find out whether PRs that had been reviewed by human or PRs that had been reviewed by agents were of higher quality. Mikhail，Shopify 的 CTO，对此做了一项科学研究。他们有… …我想这是去年年底或今年年初，他让 agents 回溯所有事故，包括宕机和 Shopify 在生产环境里出过的其他问题，追溯到被合并的那个 PR，再看是人类审查过的 PR还是 agents 审查过的 PR 质量更高。

Well, lo and surprise- ... the PRs that have been reviewed by agents caused far fewer issues in production. And this was with models we had six months ago. At this point, 100% in the majority of domains we work in today, agents are better at finding bugs. - So you now run agents all day. 结果，说来也巧，被 agents 审查过的 PR，在生产环境里造成的问题少得多。而这用的还是我们六个月前的模型。到了现在，在我们今天工作的大多数领域里，百分百可以说，agents 更擅长找 bug。主持人：所以你现在整天都在跑 agents。

What stands out to you as the better model? Who's currently winning? It seems to be changing constantly. Sol, Fable, Grok 4.6, Gemini, the Chinese OpenWay models. - What's amazing to me is that you could rattle off so many different contenders. That this market is so wide open, that it does actually change back and forth, that we have real competition, that there are so many labs that are able to get either to the frontier or close to it. That, by the way, is remarkable. 对你来说，哪个模型更突出、更好？眼下谁在赢？这似乎一直在变。 Sol、Fable、Grok 4.6、Gemini，还有中国的开源权重模型。 DHH：让我吃惊的是，你能一口气报出这么多不同的竞争者。这个市场如此开放，它确实会来回变，我们有真正的竞争，有这么多实验室能够到达前沿，或接近前沿。顺便说一句，这非常了不起。

I still don't fully understand that. But to answer your question, the best model in general right now is Fable. The second-best model, in my opinion, is Opus 5. But the tier just below Opus 5, and it's not even that they're always below, sometimes they're ahead. 我到现在也没有完全理解这一点。但回答你的问题：眼下总体最好的模型是 Fable。我认为第二好的是 Opus 5。但 Opus 5 下面那一档，甚至不能说它们总是在下面，有时它们会领先。

I'll get to that in a second. I would rank GPT Sol very good. Grok 4.6 I just started testing a few days ago. I had this wonderful test that I've set up by accident where I translated this Python library into Rust. Uh, the screensaver you just saw with all the cool animation? That's powered by a Python library called Terminal Text Effects. 我马上会说到。我会把 GPT Sol 排得很靠前。Grok 4.6 我几天才刚开始测。我碰巧设了一个很棒的测试：我把这个 Python 库翻译成了 Rust。你刚才看到的那个有很酷动画的屏保？它是由一个叫 Terminal Text Effects 的 Python 库驱动的。

Really cool library. We've been using it since the first day of Omarchy. The problem with that is it's written in Python, so when it starts up, especially on a laptop, and it runs in Python, it uses all of your CPU to do these effects, and therefore, it means it uses about 30 watts of energy, and it spins up your fans, and it drains your battery. Doesn't really matter on a local computer, but it does matter on a laptop. So I thought, "Do you know what? 非常酷的库。从 Omarchy 第一天起我们就在用。问题是它用 Python 写的，所以启动时，尤其在笔记本上，它用 Python 跑这些效果，会吃满你的 CPU，因此大约要消耗 30 瓦能量，风扇转起来，电池被抽干。在台式电脑上其实无所谓，但在笔记本上就有所谓。所以我想：「你知道吗？这听起来像是 Rust 该解决的问题。

This sounds like a problem for Rust." So first I gave Fable the challenge,and all I told it was, "Here's the source code for the Python library," this TTE library that had a bunch of dependencies and so forth. "I want a Rust version of this with no dependencies, a single executable." Like, that's what Rust does. So basically, I want it in Rust. 」于是我先把这个挑战交给 Fable，我只告诉它：「这是这个 Python 库的源代码，」这个 TTE 库有一堆依赖之类的。 「我要一个没有依赖的 Rust 版本，一个单独的可执行文件。 」就像，Rust 就是干这个的。所以基本上，我要它用 Rust。

I want it to be pixel perfect, frame by frame, do a full analysis, don't stop until you're finished. - Yep. - That was the prompt. - Yep. 我要它像素级完美，一帧一帧，做完整分析，没做完就别停。主持人：对。 DHH：那就是 prompt。主持人：对。

- I kid you not, in just under 45 minutes, it was like Am I heard all? I'm finished. I've checked everything. I have reduced the startup time from 86 milliseconds to two milliseconds. I have sped up the execution time by 9.6 times, I believe it was. The executable is three megabytes. Do you wanna run it? DHH：我不骗你，不到 45 分钟，它就像：我全做完了？我完成了。我检查过所有东西。我把启动时间从 86 毫秒降到了 2 毫秒。我把执行速度提高了 9.6 倍，我记得是这样。可执行文件是 3 MB。你要不要跑一下？

- That's awesome. - So I run it— - Oh, man. - ... and I don't know why I'm surprised, because this translation job is something we've known for a while that AI is pretty good at, but it was still staggering to me that I could one-shot a full translation of a Python library I had been using for a year, that others had been using for much longer, and turn it into a Rust executable without knowing any Rust,without looking at the Rust code at all, and produce this executable that I then told the agent right after, "This is great. 主持人：这太棒了。 DHH：所以我跑了它。主持人：哦，天哪。 DHH：… …我不知道自己为什么还吃惊，因为这种翻译工作我们早就知道 AI 相当擅长，但我仍然震惊：我能一次性完成一个我用了一年、别人用得更久的 Python 库的完整翻译，把它变成一个 Rust 可执行文件，而我完全不懂 Rust，也完全没看过 Rust 代码，就产出了这个可执行文件，然后我立刻跟 agent 说：「这很好。发出去。 」它把它打成一个新包。

Ship it." It packaged it up as a new package. It told me, "What do you want it to call?" "Uh, let's call it TTFX. Let's create a new Git repo." It sets up the Git repo. "Let's create a new package, build package for our build system." It puts that up. "Let's push it out. Let's open the pull request to the Omarchy itself so we switch around from TTE, the Python implementation, to TTFX." It does all of it, and I'm just sitting there. 它问我：「你想叫它什么？ 」「呃，就叫 TTFX。我们建一个新的 Git 仓库。 」它把 Git 仓库建好。 「我们给构建系统建一个新包。 」它放上去。 「我们推出去。我们向 Omarchy 本身开一个 pull request，好从 TTE 这个 Python 实现切到TTFX。 」它把这一切都做了，而我只是坐在那里。

And again, I'm already at this point fully delirious with agent acceleration, and I still had to lean back and I go like, "This is AGI, isn't it? This is what AGI looks like. If we have... If these moments are just what it is all the time, this is AGI." - Now, as I understand, you also repeated the same experiment not just with Fable. - I did it on all the models. First, I did it... Actually, funny thing. 再说一次，我此时已经被 agent 加速搞得完全神志不清，我仍然得往后一靠，心想：「这就是 AGI，对吧？ AGI 看起来就是这样。如果我们有… …如果这样的时刻一直都是这样，这就是 AGI。 」主持人：据我理解，你还用不止 Fable 重复了同样的实验。 DHH：我在所有模型上都做了。首先，我做了… …其实，很好笑的一件事。

So I ran out of Fable tokens about two-thirds through, and it just automatically switched over to Opus 5 and kept going and finished the job. Part of the reason why I think it was able to do that was that the first thing Fable did was create a plan, and it was a really detailed plan. I think it had eight separate steps of, "Here you do it, and here, how you analyze it, and here you run the effects," and so on. I didn't review the plan at all. I didn't change the plan. 所以大概做到三分之二时，我的 Fable tokens 用完了，它就自动切到 Opus 5，继续做，把工作做完。我觉得它能做到这一点，部分原因是 Fable 做的第一件事就是写一份计划，而且是一份非常详细的计划。我想它有八个独立步骤：「这里你做这个，这里你怎么分析，这里你跑这些效果，」等等。我完全没审查这份计划。我没改计划。

It just made the plan so Opus could take over. And then I thought, "Well, if Opus can finish the job, maybe some of the other agents could finish it, too." So the first thing I did was I gave it to... I think I gave it to Sol. And Sol finished the job, too. It took twice as long, so it took, I think, about an hour and a half. But here's the kicker. The per token cost, I didn't pay per token. I have a max subscription to Claude, right? So it did it within the subscription. 它就是把计划写好，好让 Opus 能够接手。然后我想：「好，如果 Opus 能把工作做完，也许其他 agents 也能做完。 」所以我做的第一件事是把它交给… …我想我交给了 Sol。 Sol 也把工作做完了。花了两倍时间，所以我想大约一个半小时。但关键来了。按 token 计费，我并没有按 token 付。我有 Claude 的 max 订阅，对吧？所以它是在订阅额度里做的。

It used all my tokens, so I had to switch over to Opus 5. But if I had paid per token, it would've been 550 bucks, I think, to do the whole thing. And I thought for a second, "Holy shit. What a steal." If I personally had to learn Rust well enough to be able to do this translation, I'm looking at a nine-month job here. I can pay 500 bucks to have this translation happen, and suddenly I get a 10x execution speed up. This is ama- I would totally pay 500 bucks for this. 它用光了我的tokens，所以我得切到 Opus 5。但如果我按 token 付，做完全部大概得 550 美元。我当时想了一秒：「我靠。这太划算了。 」如果我自己得把 Rust 学到能做这次翻译的程度，那是一份九个月的工作。我可以花 500 美元完成这次翻译，然后突然得到 10 倍执行加速。这太… …我完全愿意为这个付 500 美元。

But competition. So I give it to Sol. Same plan. To be fair, I didn't ask Sol to do the plan. I just took the Fable plan, gave it to Sol. Sol, in an hour and a half, and I think $46 worth of token, repeated the task. Did the same thing. And I thought, "Well, blimey, that's amazing." Then I got greedy. 但是有竞争。所以我把它交给 Sol。同一份计划。公平地说，我没让 Sol 做计划。我只是拿了 Fable 的计划，交给 Sol。Sol 用一个半小时，以及我想价值 46 美元的 token，重复了这项任务。做了同样的事。然后我想：「哇，这太惊人了。」然后我起了贪心。

So I asked GPT Luna, which is this crazy cheap model that OpenAI has as well, "Can you do it?" Absolutely not. First of all, it didn't even wanna start the task. I think something happened I don't know. I think it was in the spring, where we didn't need these slash goal things anymore. The agents could just automatically keep going in a loop if you told it not to stop- ... and so forth. So Sol could do that. Fable could do that. 所以我问 GPT Luna，也就是 OpenAI 那个便宜得离谱的模型：「你能做吗？ 」绝对不能。首先，它甚至不想开始这项任务。我想发生了什么，我不知道。我想是春天的时候，我们不再需要那些斜杠 goal 之类的东西了。只要你告诉它别停，agents 就能自动在循环里继续往下做，等等。所以 Sol 能做到。 Fable 能做到。

But Luna couldn't. So I had... I think I did 12 prompts. Kept telling it to do it, and eventually I sorta got it started. The first thing it did was to cheat. So the first thing it, it looked outside its own directory, saw that there was already another imple- implementation, and just did a short wrapper around that and said, "I'm done." Hilarious. But it couldn't finish because it made just a couple thing. But I mean,okay, so it can't do that. 但 Luna 做不到。所以我… …我想我下了 12 个 prompt。不停让它做，最后算是让它启动了。它做的第一件事就是作弊。所以它首先往自己目录外面看，发现已经有另一个实现了，就在那外面套了一个短 wrapper，然后说：「我做完了。 」太好笑了。但它做不完，因为它就出了那么几处问题。但我是说，好吧，所以它做不了这个。

Then I gave it to Grok- ... 46. And I had used Grok 45 a little bit, and I thought like, "Ah, I mean, it's cool that there's others trying, but, like, I'm not gonna use it," because it felt quite far behind. Grok 46 fucking completes the task. 10x speed up, same size executable. $55 Worth of per token cost, I think it was. 然后我把它交给 Grok 4.6。我之前用过一点 Grok 4.5，当时想：「啊，有别人在试当然很酷，但我不会用它，」因为它感觉落后不少。 Grok 4.6 他妈的把任务完成了。 10 倍加速，可执行文件同样大小。按 token 计费大约 55 美元，我想是这样。

Absolutely unbelievable. Then I repeated, too, with, uh, Kimi K3- ... which took forever. I forget how long Kimi actually spent on it. And then I also did it with DeepSeek V4 Flash first. And Flash failed the same way that Luna did. It couldn't do it. And then I did it with Pro, and Pro also completed the task. It took 2 hours 45, $23. So here we are, right? Like, Fable, clearly the best. It was the fastest. 绝对难以置信。然后我又用 Kimi K3 重复了一遍，它花了好久。我忘了 Kimi 实际花了多久。然后我也先用 DeepSeek V4 Flash 做了。 Flash 跟 Luna 一样失败了。它做不到。然后我用 Pro 做，Pro 也完成了任务。花了 2 小时 45 分，23 美元。所以我们到了这里，对吧？ Fable 明显最好。

It was the one that wrote the plan, but 550 bucks, and the output the same. Uh, the others, Sol, Grok, about the same 1/10 the cost. DeepSeek, 1/20 the cost, but you have to wait a little longer. Absolutely gobsmackingly incredible. And now, by the way, by the way, so I had Fable finish the first job, and then Opus finished it. That was the first one shot, right? 它是最快的。写计划的也是它，但要 550 美元，产出却一样。其他的，Sol、Grok，大概同样，成本是十分之一。 DeepSeek 是二十分之一的成本，但你得多等一会儿。绝对让人瞠目结舌。而且，对了，对了，所以我让 Fable 做完第一份工作，然后 Opus 把它做完。那是第一次一次性完成，对吧？

It's 10 times faster. I did two auto research runs, which isn't even auto research anymore. You don't have to do the slash. You just tell it to keep going until you tell it to stop. It ended up... I think we ended up with a 46 time execution improvement over the original. - It's incredible. - Absolutely incredible. - It's just incredible. Um, I do, you know, I just don't think there's anything that compares to Fable in terms of planning. 它快了 10 倍。我又做了两轮自动研究，现在甚至已经不是自动研究了。你不必再打那个斜杠命令。你只要告诉它继续，直到你让它停。最后… …我想我们相对原始版本，得到了 46 倍的执行提升。主持人：这太不可思议了。 DHH：绝对不可思议。主持人：就是不可思议。我确实，你知道，我觉得在规划上没有任何东西能跟 Fable 比。

So I usually do Fable for planning and for reviewing,and then something else for implementation, like Opus 5. And it's really nice. It's a, it's a really nice setup that allows you to not run out of tokens too much. - What I found, it's really interesting because Fable is, in my opinion, the best model right now, but it also makes mistakes. 所以我通常用 Fable 做规划和审查，然后用别的东西做实现，比如 Opus 5。这真的很好。这是一套很好的 setup，能让你不至于太快把 tokens 用光。 DHH：我发现的一点很有意思，因为 Fable 在我看来是眼下最好的模型，但它也会犯错。

And the best way to get the best software, I would actually rather have two differently sourced sort of... I mean, they're not mid-tier, they're all frontier. But have, let's say Opus 5 and Codex- ... and have one check the other's job. This is my standard operating procedure now. I'll have Opus or Fable do the work, and then I always end it, review with Codex xHigh. And I've also started using Grok just to test it out, and it's also quite good. And it keeps finding stuff. 要得到最好的软件，我其实更愿意用两个不同来源的… …我是说，它们不是中档，它们都是前沿。但比如说让 Opus 5 和 Codex互相检查对方的工作。这是我现在的标准操作程序。我会让 Opus 或 Fable 做活，然后我总是收尾，用 Codex xHigh 来审查。我也开始用 Grok，只是想试试，它也相当好。

And then that's my workflow when I'm having my agents on my own machine do it, and then I push to GitHub. And then Copilot, I kid you not, has actually gotten good. Copilot keeps finding stuff that's legitimately broken, which is also incredible acceleration because the first version of Copilot that started doing this was literally retarded. It would just constantly flag things that were nonsense. 它一直能找出东西。然后这就是我的工作流：让自己机器上的 agents 去做，然后我推到 GitHub。然后 Copilot，我不骗你，竟然真的变好了。 Copilot 一直能找出真正坏掉的东西，这也是惊人的加速，因为开始做这件事的第一版 Copilot 简直弱智。它会不断标出毫无道理的东西。

It would constantly flag the same problem over and over again as you would push. It was really annoying, so I think a lot of people actually ended up turning that off. And if they did, they should turn it back on because it's actually quite good. Keeps finding things. And if you then take that, and we shouldn't be surprised. Why are we surprised? 你一推，它就会一遍遍标出同一个问题。真的很烦人，所以我想很多人后来把它关了。如果他们关了，现在该重新打开，因为它其实相当好。一直能找出东西。然后如果你再把这个接上，我们不该吃惊。我们为什么吃惊？即便你是很好的程序员，如果你做完一份工作，再请同样很好的同事来审查，你最终会得到更好的代码。

Even if you're a good programmer, if you finish a job and you ask your also very good peer to review it, you're gonna end up with better code. Of course you're gonna end up with better code. So build that into your process. Pick one of the agents to drive with. I've mainly been driving with Claude, which is actually interesting because I have some other reservations about Anthropic. 你当然会得到更好的代码。所以把这个建进你的流程里。选一个 agent 来主导。我主要一直用 Claude 来主导，这其实很有意思，因为我对 Anthropic 还有一些别的保留。但我继续用 Claude 的原因是，在我看来，他们其实有最好的 harness。

But the reason I'm sticking with Claude is, in my opinion, they actually have the best harness. And one of the reasons it's the best harness is it's multi-agent running. So if you wanna run multiple agents at the same time, you can do arrow left when you're inside a session, then it goes back to Agent View. And here in Agent View, you can pick up another agent. 它之所以是最好的 harness，原因之一是它能跑多 agent。所以如果你想同时跑多个 agents，你可以在一个 session 里按左方向键，然后它回到 Agent View。在 Agent View 里，你可以再接上另一个 agent。

So if you wanna do this thing where you have multiple threads going on- ... the Claude Code is just the nicest setup. They also just, they keep being a little further ahead, which probably shouldn't be surprising. I mean, Boris is one of the guys that's working on that, he was the first one and basically came up with the thing. It's just interesting that that has been an enduring advantage. I've also used OpenCode a lot. 所以如果你想做这种多线程同时进行的事，Claude Code 就是最舒服的 setup。他们也一直稍微领先一点，这大概不该让人吃惊。我是说，Boris 是做这个的人之一，他是第一个，基本上就是他想出了这东西。有趣的是，这个优势一直还在。我也大量用过 OpenCode。

I think OpenCode is great. I use OpenCode mainly as my main harness for all the open models, so Kimi K3 and so forth. And I inference not on the Chinese servers. So I inference on Fireworks- ... which is a really nice service where you can just pay by the token, and if you're using these open weight models, they're not that expensive by token. So that's a great way to do that. But I don't think I would be using... Well, maybe I would. But if... 我觉得 OpenCode 很棒。我把 OpenCode 主要当作所有开源模型的主 harness，比如 Kimi K3 之类。而且我不是在中国的服务器上做推理。我在 Fireworks 上做推理，那是一个很好的服务，你可以按 token 付费，如果你用这些开源权重模型，按 token 算并不那么贵。所以那是很好的做法。但我不认为我会用……好吧，也许我会。但如果……

Using Claude with a subscription does feel like a bargain, like a crazy bargain. - Yeah, I knew. And I actually have four. - I just signed up for my second one this morning- ... because I got up at 4:00 with jet lag, and I started working with the agents right away, and now I'm three days away from limits resetting on Fable, and I ran out of tokens. - So and they should really— they— - I mean, I don't... Why is that so complicated? Can't you just stack one subscription? 用订阅来使用 Claude，确实像捡了便宜，便宜得离谱。主持人：对，我知道。我其实有四个。 DHH：我今天早上刚订了第二个，因为时差让我四点就起来了，立刻开始跟 agents 干活，而现在离 Fable 额度重置还有三天，我的 tokens 已经用完了。主持人：所以他们真的该。他们。 DHH：我是说，我不… …为什么这件事那么复杂？你就不能把一份订阅叠上去吗？

Why do I need to log in multiple times? 为什么我需要登入多次？

- And obviously you'll have to develop some kind of tooling- - Yes, I did that too. - ... to move from one- ... to the other. And then- - Oh, we're building that into Omarchy, by the way. So the next version of Omarchy is gonna ship with multi-sub support. I wish that the labs would just make you buy a max 100 times. - It's kind of actually fascinating though for me because there's... It's very challenging for me to use Grok 46 and then a Claude Code because Grok is so fast. 主持人：而且显然你得做某种工具。DHH：是的，那个我也做了。主持人：……好从一个切到另一个。然后。DHH：哦，顺便说一句，我们正在把这个做进 Omarchy。所以下一版 Omarchy 会带上多订阅支持。我希望这些实验室直接让你把 max 买上 100 份。主持人：这对我来说其实也挺迷人的，因为……对我来说，用 Grok 4.6 再用 Claude Code 非常难，因为 Grok 太快了。

- Yes. That's actually the deal. The deal with Grok is that their fast mode is cheaper than the regular mode on the others. And when you've used Grok 46 on fast, it's kind of addictive 'cause it almost gets you to this single thread mode- ... where the agent is able to keep up with you. - Yeah, but I don't know how... I can't... Once I get used to Claude Code, uh, I can't handle the speed of Grok 'cause I'm used to now multitasking. DHH：是的。关键其实在这。 Grok 的交易是，他们的 fast 模式比其他家的常规模式还便宜。而当你用过 Grok 4.6 的 fast，它有点上瘾，因为它几乎把你带到这种单线程模式，agent 能跟上你。主持人：对，但我不知道怎么… …我没法… …一旦我习惯了 Claude Code，我就受不了 Grok 的速度，因为我现在已经习惯多任务了。

And so now I'm back in this- ... anxious mode of, uh- - Yeah. No, I agree. - ... switching. So I mean, all of this is a learning a learning process of what programming actually is supposed to look like. - By the way, one of the reasons why I'm not sure what the final form of these harnesses is gonna take, because one of the things we've started experimenting with at Base Camp is that we put the agents inside of Base Camp, and we treat them as coworkers. - Yeah. 所以现在我又回到这种焦虑模式，呃DHH：对。不，我同意。主持人：… …来回切。所以我是说，这一切都是在学习，学习编程到底该是什么样子。 DHH：顺便说一句，我之所以不确定这些 harness 的最终形态会是什么，是因为我们在 Basecamp 开始试验的一件事，是把 agents 放进 Basecamp 里，把它们当同事对待。

That's awesome. - And then we assign them tasks- - That's awesome. - ... inside of Base Camp, so they will do work on a to-do in Base Camp, or they'll work, do work on a card. And it turns out that a collaboration tool that's optimized for asynchronous communication is actually the right format versus these harnesses are a little more like chat. And chat, which was, I mean, the original format for these things, is not the right thing because you're sitting around waiting. 主持人：对。这太棒了。 DHH：然后我们给它们分配任务。主持人：这太棒了。 DHH：… …在 Basecamp 里面，所以它们会去做 Basecamp 里的一条待办，或者去做一张卡片上的工作。结果发现一套为异步沟通优化的协作工具，其实才是对的形态，而这些 harness 更像聊天。聊天，我是说，这些东西最初的形态，并不是对的东西，因为你坐在那里等。

It entices you to sit around and wait, versus when you're dealing with something like Base Camp and you can just give an agent a to-do item, you don't expect to hear back immediately. So I don't know what the final form is gonna take, but I've been using all of the harnesses. 它诱使你坐着等，而当你面对的是 Basecamp 这种东西，你只要给 agent 一条待办，你并不指望立刻听到回音。所以我不知道最终形态会是什么，但我一直在用所有的 harness。

So I use them inside of Herdr, and Herdr has panes. So oftentimes I'll run Claude up top, and then I'll run Codex down below, and then maybe I also have an OpenCode set up. But I will say just very recently, I found that the human in the loop is the limit here. So I've started setting up more automated systems. 所以我在 Herdr 里面用它们，Herdr 有窗格。所以很多时候我会在上面跑 Claude，下面跑 Codex，也许我还开着一个 OpenCode。但我得说，就在最近，我发现人在回路里才是这里的上限。所以我开始搭更多自动化系统。

I've been building an Omarchy bot that can do more autonomous development on Omarchy that is just On a regular schedule process, all depending to do or PRs and issues, and then send me an email using the Hey CLI, and then I just get this email. Here's 12 PRs that are either ready to go or I think you should close. And then I just make the final determination there. - Do you find the multitasks, the task- switching mentally exhausting? - Yes, but in an exhilarating way. 我在做一个 Omarchy bot，能在 Omarchy 上做更自主的开发，它只是按固定日程处理所有待办、PR 和 issue，然后用 Hey CLI 给我发一封邮件，我就收到这封邮件。这里有 12 个 PR，要么可以合，要么我认为你该关掉。然后我只在那里做最终决定。主持人：你觉得多任务、任务切换，会让脑子很累吗？

Like, one of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I'd lay down on the garage floor and just think, "Holy fuck, I'm alive." That's the kind of exhaustion, mental exhaustion I'm feeling at moments with the agents right now. - By the way, when you're racing, where, what's the source of the exhaustion? Like- - It's physical. DHH：会，但是一种振奋的累。就像，我一直喜欢赛车的一件事，是我会从车里踉跄出来，完全被砸垮，几乎抬不起头，然后躺在车库地上，只是想：「我靠，我还活着。 」我现在跟 agents 在一起时，某些时刻感到的那种疲惫，那种脑力疲惫，就是这种。主持人：顺便问一下，你比赛时，疲惫的来源是什么？比如。 DHH：是身体上的。

It's just... I mean, I bet it's the same thing with jujitsu, right? Like, it's actually satisfying to feel exhausted. It feels like you've applied yourself. And I feel that with the mental exhaustion you can get from agents. 就是… …我是说，我敢打赌柔术也是一样，对吧？感到筋疲力尽其实是满足的。那感觉像是你真正使上了力。我从 agents 带来的脑力疲惫里，也感到这一点。

- Are you also mentally drained from racing? - Yes. If you drive in difficult conditions, especially if you drive in the rain, where you're constantly managing the thing right at the knife's edge. But most of the time, I just enjoyed the physical exhaustion. - And here, with the multitask switching, I do find that, like, I get really exhausted, and I think it's because I'm thinking a lot. 主持人：赛车也会让你脑子耗尽吗？ DHH：会。如果你在困难条件下开车，尤其是在雨里开，你得一直把事情管在刀刃上。但大多数时候，我享受的只是身体上的疲惫。主持人：而在这里，多任务切换时，我确实发现我会非常累，我想是因为我在大量思考。

'Cause, like, you're basically- - That's exactly it. - ... there's no, like passive low energy thinking. 因为你基本上。 DHH：正是这样。主持人：… …没有那种被动的、低能量的思考。

- No. - You're like- - There's no coasting. - ... problem. - There's no coasting. - Solve problem, next problem, solve problem, and you're really thinking. - It's funny. It's actually very similar with racing. There's some tracks, like Le Mans, where you get time to relax. There's the Mulsanne straights where it's kinda long. You're going fast, but in a straight line, you can take a breath. DHH：没有。主持人：你就像。 DHH：没有滑行。主持人：… …问题。 DHH：没有滑行。主持人：解决问题，下一个问题，再解决问题，而你是真的在思考。 DHH：很好笑。这其实跟赛车非常像。有些赛道，比如勒芒，你会有放松的时间。有穆桑直道，比较长。你开得很快，但是直线，你可以喘口气。

And then there are other tracks where it's just coming full on all the time, and you don't have any moment to relax, and you stumble out of the car after an hour in each, and it's very different how exhausted you are. And this is exactly what I'm finding with the agents too, that when you're running at max human capacity- ... you're just constantly in a corner. - Do you think people are in danger of burnout? - I think the moment we're in right now is gonna pass. 然后有些赛道是全程扑面而来，你没有任何放松的片刻，你从一个小时后从车里踉跄出来，两种情况下你有多累非常不一样。我在 agents 身上发现的正好也是这个：当你以人类的最大容量在跑，你就一直在弯角里。主持人：你觉得人们有 burnout 的危险吗？ DHH：我觉得我们眼下这个时刻会过去。

That this need to... It's not a babysitting motion, but constant interaction with the agents is gonna fade. From what I've seen on Omarchy, I think we can automate a ton of the development and debugging of the system- ... to the point where I can just review that email once a day, and then make the decisions once a day. Yep, goes, no, goes, in, out, and whatever. 那种需要… …这不是保姆式的动作，但持续不断地跟 agents 交互，这一点会淡下去。从我在 Omarchy 上看到的来看，我觉得我们可以把系统的大量开发和调试自动化，到我每天只要看一次那封邮件，每天做一次决定。行，过；不行，过；进，出，不管什么。

We're not there yet, but I think we're gonna get there. - Well, can you sort of, like, empathize with the feeling that,say, a young person sitting in San Francisco, everybody around them is not sleeping. They're obsessed. They're programming nonstop. And there's this kinda sense, that AGI is gonna be here any minute. There's, everybody knows somebody who's made millions of dollars because they sold a startup. And so there's a kinda feeling like you shouldn't be sleeping. 我们还没到那一步，但我觉得我们会到。主持人：那你能不能有点共情那种感觉，比如说，一个年轻人坐在旧金山，周围所有人都不睡觉。他们着了迷。他们不停地编程。而且有一种感觉：AGI 随时会到来。每个人都认识某个因为卖掉 startup 而赚了几百万美元的人。于是就有一种感觉：你不该睡觉。

You should be constantly managing agents and programming and building and,and that feels like a moment in time we'll look back at. - It's the birth of a new paradigm. It's always messy. - It's always messy. - It's always exhausting. There's no other way around that. And by the way, hasn't San Francisco always been like this? I remember the dotcom boom years, and everyone was just the same, and then it was all mobile, and before that it was the gold rush. 你该不停地管理 agents、编程、构建，而且而这感觉像是我们将来会回头看的一个时刻。 DHH：这是一个新范式的诞生。它总是乱的。主持人：总是乱的。 DHH：总是令人筋疲力尽。没有别的办法。顺便说一句，旧金山难道不一直是这样吗？我记得互联网泡沫那些年，所有人都是这样，然后全是移动互联网，再之前是淘金热。

So I think that's probably- ... just San Francisco. It attracts- ... the kind of individuals- - The dreamers - ... who would, who would think, "I don't have time to sleep." I've not been on that track,generally speaking, but I will admit that the last three months have felt more exhausting than any other project I've done in the last five years, since the Hey launch. That was the last time we had a crazy exhausting launch. - Do you think you can keep going at this pace? 所以我觉得那大概… …就是旧金山。它吸引的是那种会想「我没时间睡觉」的人。主持人：做梦的人。 DHH：… …那种人。我大体上并没有走那条路，但得承认，过去三个月比我过去五年里做的任何其他项目都更累，上一次是 Hey 上线。那是我们上一次疯狂累人的上线。主持人：你觉得你能按这个节奏继续下去吗？ DHH：不，不，不，不，不。

- No, no, no, no, no. This is not sustainable at all. - Okay. - But I also, I can see the end of the tunnel. Because the automation, which by the way, everyone is building. This is so hilarious. Like, everyone is building their little gas town, their little agent coordination, their setup. This is all gonna be solved. We're not all gonna have to build our own coordination harnesses. Of course we're not. 这完全不可持续。主持人：好。 DHH：但我也看得到隧道尽头。因为自动化，顺便说一句，所有人都在做。这太好笑了。所有人都在做自己的小小 Gas Town，自己的小小 agent 协调，自己的 setup。这些全都会被解决。我们不会都得去建自己的协调 harness。

And in fact, I'm a little surprised that it's gone this long, that there's not more of it has been sucked up by the major labs. You'd think that they'd just built this stuff in. But some of it is also this is what a new domain looks like. I remember for a hot moment when JavaScript kind of came to realize its own power, and there was basically a new JavaScript framework every five minutes, right? Like, a lot of churn. This is what happens at the advent of a new paradigm. 当然不会。事实上，我有点吃惊它拖了这么久，主要实验室还没有把更多这类东西吸进去。你会以为他们直接就内置了这些。但其中一部分也是：一个新领域看起来就是这样。我记得有那么一阵，JavaScript 好像刚意识到自己的力量，然后基本上每五分钟就有一个新的 JavaScript 框架，对吧？大量更替。新范式到来时就是这样。

So I think it's natural, and I think it's gonna settle down, and I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I don't mind a sprint. In fact, I welcome it now. I like this notion that most time is calm, but then occasionally you gotta climb a mountain. - If we look back to the DHH a year ago, what advice would you give to that guy? - I wouldn't wanna spoil it. 所以我觉得这很自然，我觉得它会沉淀下来，我已经能看见隧道尽头的光。所以我不介意冲刺。事实上，我现在欢迎它。我喜欢这种感觉：大多数时间是平静的，但偶尔你得去爬一座山。主持人：如果回头看一年前的 DHH，你会给那个人什么建议？ DHH：我不想剧透。

- Okay. - What a- ... thriller that this has been. I mean, if you would've scripted this, I'd be like, "This is so far-fetched. Get out of here. Unbelievable," right? I wouldn't wanna know anything. The fact that this rollercoaster and this acceleration has been absorbed in real time by everyone, no one knew, right? Like, some had premonitions that were a little better than others, but no one knew, not exactly the way- ... it was gonna go and how fast it was gonna take off. 主持人：好。DHH：这场惊悚片太……精彩了。我是说，如果有人把这些写成剧本，我会说：「这也太离谱了。走开。难以置信，」对吧？我什么都不想提前知道。这场过山车、这场加速被所有人实时吞下去，没有人知道，对吧？有些人的预感比别人准一点，但没有人确切知道它会怎么走、会起飞得有多快。

I mean, it's the show of a lifetime. I mean, the mean cinema- ... absolutely applies- - Yeah, it's incredible. - ... to this moment. - Uh, that said, what do you think DHH from a year from now will be like? I mean, what are the possible versions? - That all our dreams are coming true. Like, this is the AI maximalist abundance argument. 我是说，这是一生难遇的一场戏。我是说，cinema 这个梗完全适用于。主持人：对，太不可思议了。 DHH：… …这一刻。主持人：不过话说回来，你觉得一年后的 DHH 会是什么样？我是说，可能有哪些版本？ DHH：我们所有的梦都在成真。

That once Elon's robots have the level of intelligence and AGI that I'm experiencing on some of this development stuff, the world is gonna be so unrecognizably different that we can't even imagine it. Now, I don't spend any time thinking about that because I think that is the way to the AI psychosis. So therefore, I just immerse myself in the moment and get absolutely the maximum out of it and- - Just have fun. 就像，这就是 AI 最大化主义者的丰饶论点。一旦 Elon 的机器人拥有我在这些开发工作上正在体验的那种智能水平和 AGI，世界会变得认不出来，我们甚至无法想象。现在，我完全不花时间去想那个，因为我觉得那就是通向 AI 精神病的路。所以我只是把自己浸在当下，从中拿到绝对的最大值，然后。主持人：就是玩得开心。

I mean, I get it why people are finding this exhausting. Just keeping up. Not even using agents, just, like, being like, "What's the latest model? What did, what tool are we using now? Is it TMox? Is it a Herder? Is it none of it? Is it agents?" Whatever. I get it, but I also again think we should be so blessed. You are alive in this moment where decades are happening- ... in weeks. - Um, quick bathroom break. 我是说，我理解为什么人们觉得这令人筋疲力尽。光是跟上。甚至不是在用 agents，只是：「最新的模型是什么？我们现在用的是什么工具？是 tmux？是 Herdr？还是都不是？是 agents？ 」随便什么。我理解，但我也再次觉得我们该感到何其幸运。你活在这样一个几十年发生在几周里的时刻。主持人：嗯，先去一下洗手间。

I've been generating a lot of video recently with Higgsfield,and so they, they became a sponsor. Created a racing video. Wanted to get your opinion on it. - Oh, yeah? Oh, let me see. Let me see. - To see, um- - If they downshift on a straight like they do in the movies, I'll call it out. That is the worst. Let me see. - Yeah, see if- - Oh, that's a real clip - ... this is fully AI generated. So first it goes- - Wait, what? This is AI? - Yep. - Shit, that's my suit. 我最近用 Higgsfield 生成了很多视频，所以他们成了赞助商。做了一段赛车视频。想听听你的看法。 DHH：哦，是吗？哦，让我看看。让我看看。主持人：看看，嗯。 DHH：如果他们像电影里那样在直道上降档，我会喊出来。那是最糟的。让我看看。主持人：对，看看这。 DHH：哦，那是真片段。主持人：… …是完全 AI 生成的。所以首先它。 DHH：等等，什么？这是 AI？主持人：对。 DHH：我靠，那是我的赛车服。

That's my car. 那是我的车。

- Lights go green on a street that never sleeps. - Oh, my God. - Do an audio- - Are you kidding me? - But they never came. Is it good? I got a bad case. - I mean, it's crazy. You really have to notice in the... Like, that car didn't have headlights on and the other one did. 主持人：灯光变绿，在一条永不睡眠的街上。DHH：我的天。主持人：做一段音频。DHH：你在开玩笑吗？主持人：但他们一直没来。好不好？我情况不太妙。DHH：我是说，这太疯狂了。你真的得注意到……比如，那辆车没开车灯，另一辆开了。

And that looked like a 60-year-old version of me. But holy crap, the... Wow, that was crazy. - So there's parallels here to programming because if you do just straight video generation with no human in the loop- ... you get a lot of weird artifacts- ... and so on, and you can't really do... So they do and I highly recommend people go to the Higgsfield YouTube. They have full 90-minute original movies. 而且那看起来像 60 岁的我。但是我靠，那个……哇，太疯狂了。主持人：所以这里跟编程有平行之处，因为如果你只是直接做视频生成，没有人在回路里，你会得到很多奇怪的伪影等等，而且你没法真正做……所以他们会做，我非常建议大家去 Higgsfield 的 YouTube。他们有完整的 90 分钟原创电影。

And, like, I can't look away. It's really cool. 'Cause it used to be that it's just, like, something that just feels like trailers. Like advertisements for something. - Yes, yes. - This is actually telling stories, like, people's faces and they're talking and you're like, you're drawn in. It's not quite where programming is. And so the question is how do you integrate the human into the loop of the filmmaking process? 而且，我没法把眼睛拿开。真的很酷。因为以前那种东西感觉就只像预告片。像是在给什么做广告。 DHH：对，对。主持人：这其实是在讲故事，人们的脸，他们在说话，而你会，你会被吸进去。它还没到编程现在的程度。所以问题是：你如何把人整合进电影制作的回路？

So you have to create the people, and they're- ... they have to be kept consistent. 所以你得创造出那些人，而且他们必须保持一致。

And then for the images that are kinda like feeding the thing in the creation process, you have to correct through prompting things that don't feel right. Because when you go from image to video, the stuff that doesn't feel right will be- - It's gonna be zoomed up, right? - That's the stuff that's- ... going to really create, uh- ... the non-realistic stuff. 然后对于那些在创作过程中喂进去的图像，你得通过 prompting 去修正那些感觉不对的东西。因为当你从图像走到视频，那些感觉不对的东西会被。 DHH：会被放大，对吧？主持人：那些东西会真正制造出不真实的东西。

The questions I had for you is, like, do you think outside of programming, can you apply lessons from programming to video creation, to art? - It's a good question because I think good art is very dependent on the same thing that good software is depending on: having a vision, having a cohesive idea of what you wanna create. How is it different? How is it novel? How is it going to appeal to people? 我想问你的问题是，你觉得在编程之外，你能不能把编程里的经验用到视频创作、用到艺术上？ DHH：这是个好问题，因为我觉得好的艺术非常依赖好软件所依赖的同一件事：有愿景，对你想创造的东西有一个连贯的想法。它有何不同？它有何新颖？它将如何打动人？

But I'm not sure that the creative instincts transfer quite as well. Um, I don't know that I would have the creative insights to come up with good video prompts that would create compelling content. But it's funny because I have actually, on TikTok, there's this guy, I'm trying to remember, Goblin something. That creates these... They are shorts, but not super short, maybe a couple minutes,of really interesting sci-fi vignettes. 但我不确定创造直觉能同样好地迁移过去。我不知道自己会不会有那种创造洞见，能写出好的视频 prompt，做出有吸引力的内容。但很好笑，因为我其实在 TikTok 上，有一个人，我想想，叫 Goblin 什么的。他做这些… …它们是短片，但不是特别短，大概几分钟，非常有意思的科幻小品。

And I think the guy is actually working on a feature-length video right now. Um, and I think that this is one of those abundance moments. There are creative people with that vision all over the place, especially in a genre like film, where before it required a $200 million budget to create, I don't know, a sci-fi movie. Now suddenly, with AI, if you have the right vision for it, you can do that in your bedroom. Now, that story's been told quite a few times in other domains. 我想这人现在其实正在做一部长片。而且我觉得这就是那种丰饶时刻之一。到处都有带着那种愿景的创造者，尤其在电影这种类型里，以前你需要两亿美元预算才能做出一部，我不知道，科幻片。现在突然，有了 AI，如果你对它有正确的愿景，你可以在卧室里做出来。这个故事在其他领域已经被讲过很多次了。

It used to be true that if you wanted to record a studio album, well, you needed a studio, and you needed to book that. And now you can record at home on your laptop, and you can do a lot of these things, right? So we've had this democratization process happen with plenty of other domains, but film seems to be one of the last ones. 以前如果你想录一张录音室专辑，你需要一间录音室，你还得去预订。现在你可以在家里用笔记本录，你可以做很多这类事，对吧？所以这种民主化过程已经在很多其他领域发生过，但电影似乎是最后几个之一。

- And it's the one that makes, like, me and a lot of people feel weird, right? Like- - Oh, I'm super excited 'cause I think it's- - I mean, you- - There's so much garbage being produced right now. It's the same argument with the slob, right? So people for a second were worried about slob in programming, and I was telling them, like, "Have you seen the human slob? It's also pretty bad." And I think if it comes to studio entertainment, I mean, the bar is pretty low, right? 主持人：而它也是让我、让很多人觉得怪异的那个，对吧？就像。DHH：哦，我超级兴奋，因为我觉得它。主持人：我是说，你。DHH：现在正在产出那么多垃圾。这跟 slop 的争论是一样的，对吧？所以人们有那么一会儿在担心编程里的 slop，而我跟他们说：「你们见过人类的 slop 吗？也挺糟的。」而如果是到了片厂娱乐，我是说，门槛相当低，对吧？

Like, the number of great movies I've been dying to see over the past, say, five years, not been a particularly high number. - Yeah, the video models are just, they're able to create incredibly realistic facial expressions. 比如过去五年里，我一直渴望去看的伟大电影，数量并不是特别高。主持人：对，视频模型已经能做出极其真实的面部表情。我是说，它可能就会改变电影的本质，我觉得它们…

I mean, it just might change the nature of film I think they're— I guess my hope would be that video games and film kind of merge, and that film can become interactive - Like the malleable operating system, having the malleable narrative, having malleable entertainment, that man, Game of Thrones, what if we could just forget the last four episodes of slob that was produced- ... and then AI- ... comes up with- ... I don't know- ... maybe 100 different variations, and someone else watches that, and I get the version that actually finishes off that show in a way that's fitting. - Yeah. …我希望的是，视频游戏和电影某种程度上融合，电影可以变得可交互。 DHH：就像可塑的操作系统，拥有可塑的叙事，拥有可塑的娱乐，天哪，《权力的游戏》，假如我们能直接忘掉最后四集被做出来的 slop，然后 AI 想出，我不知道，。也许 100 种不同变体，别人看那个版本，而我拿到真正把那部剧收束得合适的那个版本。主持人：对。我总觉得，一个独立创作者不会做出那些…

Something tells me an individual creator would not create those la- would create a different ending for Game of Thrones. - Oh, for sure. Right? And more just to make the argument that talk about human slob. That was an absolute atrocious ending to perhaps one of the greatest pieces of,Movie history, I was about to say, but, um, series history, right? It was so good, and it was actually a compelling argument for the fact that you need that strong vision. …会给《权力的游戏》做出一个不同的结局。 DHH：哦，当然。对吧？而这更多只是为了论证，说到人类的 slop。那绝对是一个骇人听闻的结局，给也许最伟大的电影史，我差点这么说，但是剧集史，对吧？它曾经那么好，而这其实是一个有力的论据：你需要那种强烈的愿景。而那些 showrunner 一旦没有剧本就往下走，它就脱轨了。

And as soon as those showrunners had to go without a script, it went off the rails. - Do you think... You've mentioned AGI. Do you think we've actually achieved AGI? - No, not in the general definition that it's in all the things. But have I seen AGI in these glimmers? Absolutely. Especially over the last three months, I've seen things where I was thinking to myself, like, "How would AGI look different from this?" - Right. - What, what more could there be? 主持人：你觉得… …你提到过 AGI。你觉得我们真的已经实现 AGI 了吗？ DHH：没有，不是那种「在所有事情上都是」的一般定义。但我有没有在这些微光里看见AGI？绝对有。尤其是过去三个月，我见过一些事，当时我自己在想：「AGI 跟这个还会有什么不同？ 」主持人：对。 DHH：还能再多什么？

And I mean, I can quibble at the margins, but on the big picture, I've seen it able to do these long run tasks and coordinate these multiple aspects of it that we're so far beyond that early moment where I'm telling it, "Go do this, package that." And now it can carry out a whole task from these vague instructions. That feels very AGI-like, and that's what's so inspiring about the moment because you catch these glimmers. 我是说，我可以在边缘上挑剔，但就大图景而言，我已经看见它能做这些长程任务，并协调其中多个方面，我们已经远远越过了早期那个时刻：我告诉它「去做这个，把那个打包」。而现在它能从这些含糊的指令出发，执行一整项任务。那感觉非常像 AGI，而这正是这一刻如此鼓舞人的原因，因为你捕捉到这些微光。

And then you go, "What if everything was like that?" - Doesn't programming basically unlock the everything? 然后你会想：「如果一切都是那样呢？ 」主持人：编程难道不基本上就能解锁那一切吗？

So you can write a pro- like it can generate the program that does the everything. - So, so this is... I'm in that meta phase right now. So I'm building this Amabot system that's managing the development of Omarchy, and I'm using AI to build the bot. And I'm seeing that recurrent loop where I started it on, like, "This is what I want. I want you to be able to have these isolated VM workers and so forth," and then it can do the self iteration. Then it starts running it. 所以你可以写一个程… …就像它能生成去做那一切的程序。 DHH：所以，所以这就是… …我现在就处在那个元阶段。所以我在做这个 Amabot 系统，它在管理 Omarchy 的开发，而我在用 AI 来建这个 bot。我看见那个反复循环：我一开始跟它说，「这就是我想要的。我希望你能有这些隔离的虚拟机 worker」之类，然后它能做自我迭代。

It starts noticing its failures. It starts optimizing it. 然后它开始跑。它开始注意到自己的失败。它开始优化。

And a lot of that system, Amabot in particular, AI has driven the majority of the design decisions. Like, I had some vague ideas of where I wanted. I wanted to use this brains and hands pattern where the model is running from where the code is executing- ... which is actually a really interesting pattern. 而那套系统里很大一部分，尤其是 Amabot，设计决策的大多数是 AI 在驱动。就像，我对方向有一些含糊的想法。我想用这种「大脑和双手」模式，让模型从代码执行的地方跑起来，而这其实是一种非常有意思的模式。

Again, Toby alerted me to that, where you have a coordinator that runs the model- ... but it's manipulating a safe VM where any untrusted code you're pulling down from pull requests or issues or whatever can't contaminate the model. And even in that loop, I keep seeing it catch itself, spotting vulnerabilities, where it's like, "Oh, I actually just took some feedback from a test run. 又是 Toby 提醒我的：你有一个协调者去跑模型，但它在操纵一个安全的虚拟机，在那里你从 pull request 或 issue 或不管什么地方拉下来的任何不可信代码，都不能污染这个模型。即便在那个循环里，我不断看见它抓住自己，发现漏洞，比如：「哦，我其实刚从一次测试运行里拿了一些反馈。

If a clever attacker had embedded a malicious payload in the response of the test run, that could have polluted something. I took it for good thing. I better start treating that as as outside data." And you just go like, it is just... I get why San Francisco is so obsessed with fast takeoff- ... because clearly they've seen this 100 times- ... more. 如果一个聪明的攻击者在测试运行的响应里嵌了恶意 payload，那可能已经污染了什么。我当时把它当成好东西。我最好开始把它当作外部数据。 」然后你就会想，这就是… …

They've seen it with all the models that are in- ... training now, and we keep getting these little glimpses, like the security breach with Hugging Face, where OpenAI was training this model, and the model starts inventing ways, essentially sending smoke signals to itself through embedding messages in a package manager, where you just go like, first, that's damn clever. Second, okay, that's also a little scary. 我理解为什么旧金山对快速起飞那么着迷，因为他们显然已经多看见这个 100 倍。他们已经在所有正在训练的模型上见过，而我们不断得到这些小小的一瞥，比如 Hugging Face 上的安全事件，OpenAI 当时在训练这个模型，然后模型开始发明办法，本质上是通过在包管理器里嵌入消息，给自己发烟雾信号，然后你就会想：第一，这他妈太聪明了。

And third how amazing would this be if we could harness this level of intelligence- ... and ingenuity towards productive ends? So this is the it's so over, we're so back pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth- ... that AI has just delivered that swing back and forth like nothing else. Like barely a week goes by where it has to swing one way, and then the next week it swings back the other way. 第二，好，这也有点吓人。第三，如果我们能把这种智能和巧思导向生产性的目的，那会有多惊人？所以这就是「完了 / 我们又回来了」那种钟摆，一直来回摆，而 AI 把这种来回摆动交付得比任何东西都厉害。几乎过不了一周它就得往一边摆，下一周又摆回另一边。

Exhilarating. - I'm still at the stage where it makes me truly happy to see those moments of cleverness, and they're becoming more and more frequent. Just kinda like seeing, oh, like first of all, at the very basic level, when a model gets it. - Yes. 令人振奋。主持人：我还处在那种阶段：看见那些聪明的时刻会让我真正高兴，而且它们越来越频繁。就是那种看见，哦，首先在最基本的层面上，当一个模型真正懂了。 DHH：是的。

- I'll say a basic prompt, you know, a request, and it, it doesn't just do a dumb implementation. It deeply understands, and it... That was... That's a, that's always a beautiful thing. It's almost like having a good, like, partner, like program. - That's exactly what it is. That's exactly why it's so exhilarating and why, as we talked about before we started, it can sometimes be difficult to come out of hyperdrive. That's also one of Toby's terms here. 主持人：我会说一个基本的 prompt，一个请求，而它不只是做一个笨实现。它深刻地理解了，而且它… …那就是… …那始终是一件美丽的事。几乎像是有一个很好的搭档，在一起编程。 DHH：那正是它。那正是它如此振奋的原因，也是为什么，就像我们开始前谈过的，有时很难从超光速里出来。这也是 Toby 的词之一。

That when you're working directly just one-on-one with agents and you're not looping in other humans, you go so fast, and when the agents are really understanding your intent, or even better, they revise and improve upon your intent to deliver something that was greater than what you asked for And you're doing this with 16 parallel threads. It can be quite difficult to come out of hyperdrive and have to deal with squishy humans. They just, they don't think as fast. 就是当你直接一对一地跟 agents 工作，没有把其他人圈进来，你会走得那么快，而当 agents 真正理解你的意图，或者更好，它们修订并改进你的意图，交付出比你要求的更大的东西，而你。同时用 16 条并行线程在做这件事。要从超光速里出来，再去面对。软绵绵的人类，会相当难。他们就是，想得没有那么快。

They don't move as fast. And I mean, I'm trying mostly to make light of it, but you can also see a dark version of that where someone does end up in an AI psychosis where they're not interested in other humans at all anymore. I mean, certainly don't have that at all, but I do have this sensation at times where I'm really grateful for just the rush of just me and the agents. Like, can I just not talk to anyone else but agents- ... for four hours? 动得也没有那么快。我是说，我主要是在开玩笑，但你也能看见一个黑暗版本：有人真的陷入 AI 精神病，对其他人完全不再感兴趣。我是说，我当然完全没有那样，但我有时确实有这种感觉：我真的感激那种只属于我和agents 的冲刺。就像，我能不能四个小时里除了 agents 谁都不谈？那会是一次不可思议的奔跑。

Like, that's an incredible run. - Toby is such a fascinating human because he's running a large company. So I would love to get insights of how AI's being incorporated effectively in companies. Because, like, for me, humans are pretty slow. And so, and so there's a temptation to, like, use AI for basically,You know, AI running inside Slack, for example, or inside, The Basecamp, whatever. 主持人：Toby 是一个非常迷人的人，因为他在经营一家大公司。所以我很想得到洞察：AI 如何被有效地纳入公司。因为对我来说，人类相当慢。于是就有一种诱惑，基本上用 AI 去你知道，AI 跑在 Slack 里面，比如说，或者跑在 Basecamp 里面，不管什么。

And, like, collecting all the information about the human interaction, basically handholding the humans to speed up as much as possible. And like, and then at a certain point you're like, wait, what is this human... What are each of us doing that's not replaceable by AI? And that becomes, like, a scary kind of conversation because a lot of work is kind of replaceable. - The irony here is it already was. 然后收集关于人类互动的全部信息，基本上手把手扶着人类，让他们尽量加速。然后到了某一点你会想，等等，这个人… …我们每个人在做的、AI 替代不了的是什么？而这会变成一种有点吓人的对话，因为很多工作其实是可替代的。 DHH：讽刺之处在于，它本来就已经是。所以这个世界上目前存在的假邮件工作的数量，绝对是一场流行病。

So the number of fake email jobs that currently exist in this world is an absolute epidemic. And- ... this, by the way, is not a new thesis. Um, David Graeber wrote this wonderful piece Bullshit Jobs, back in, I think it was maybe early 2010s. 而且，顺便说一句，这不是一个新论点。 David Graeber 写过一篇很棒的《Bullshit Jobs》，大概是 2010 年代初。

Based on a poll he did in the UK asking people, at that time, would... I think the question was something like, "Would it make a difference if you didn't go to work?" For humanity, for mankind. And something like 30-some percent answered, "No, it wouldn't." That a third of workers thought that their job was fake, that it did not produce any worthwhile, valuable outcomes, neither for the community or society or maybe even the economy at all. 基于他在英国做的一项民调，当时问人们会不会… …我想问题大概是：「如果你不去上班，会有什么不同吗？ 」对人类，对人类整体。大约百分之三十多的人回答：「不会。 」也就是三分之一的工人认为自己的工作是假的，它没有产出任何值得、有价值的结果，无论是对社区、对社会，甚至也许对经济都没有。

And this was my argument since day one with startups. This was why we stayed a small company. This was why we didn't want to take VC, because I was so skeptical of the idea that you could get hundreds of programmers, thousands of programmers to do something productive- ... as a collective group. And I think what we're seeing right now with some of the layoffs is a testament to that, not AI. 而这从第一天起就是我对 startup 的论点。这就是我们保持小公司的原因。这就是我们不想拿 VC 的原因，因为我非常怀疑这种想法：你能让几百个程序员、几千个程序员作为一个集体，去做一些有生产力的事。而我觉得我们眼下在一些裁员里看到的，就是对此的证明，不是 AI。

It's just that during the pandemic, a bunch of overhiring went on, and now AI is a convenient excuse to slim down. But I do also think AI is going to expose some roles as just not being productive ways for humans to spend their time, and therefore we must come up with new ways of spending their time. 只是疫情期间发生了一堆过度招聘，现在 AI 成了瘦身的方便借口。但我也确实认为，AI 会揭露出某些角色，不过是人类把时间花在没有生产力的地方，因此我们必须想出新的花时间的方式。

And the one, again, I'm quoting Toby for the third time here, but anecdote that he shared me, or observation was, okay, let's say we all-- we lose half the jobs that are currently happening right now. Do you know that Formula 1 employs literally tens of thousands of people just to run cars around in a circle for spectators? Like, that has, that whole circus has no intrinsic value to society besides the spectacle it produces of amusement and entertainment. 而那个，我又第三次引用 Toby 了，但那个轶事，他分享给我的，或者说观察是：好，假设我们都… …我们失去目前正在发生的一半工作。你知道 Formula 1 实打实地雇佣了好几万人，就为了让车绕圈给观众看吗？就像，那场马戏对社会没有内在价值，除了它制造出的那种娱乐和消遣的奇观。

We just decided it would be really fun for these, what is it, 12 manufacturers to create these fast cars and constantly tweak their little aero improvements, and we will watch it, and we will spend literally billions of dollars doing it and employ tens of thousands of people towards an ultimately deeply frivolous activity. 我们只是决定，让这，是 12 家吗，制造商去造这些快车，不断微调他们那些小小的空气动力学改进，会非常有趣，然后我们会看，我们会实打实地花上数十亿美元去做，雇佣好几万人投入一项最终极度任性的活动。

So if we are liberated from a bunch of drudgery and fake email jobs, maybe we all get employed as F1 style engineers and drivers and mechanics and masseuses and the other 1,500 jobs that are involved in that, and we come up with new things. I think this is... Humans are very poor at imagining what exactly the future's gonna be like. - Yeah. 所以如果我们从一堆苦差事和假。邮件工作里被解放出来，也许我们全都会被雇成 F1 式的工程师、车手、机械师、按摩师，以及其中涉及的另外 1500 种工作，然后我们想出新东西。我觉得这就是… …人类非常不擅长想象未来到底会是什么样。

Imagine, imagine a future 100 plus years from now, where we look back at this whole span of history, thousands of years where humans worked. - Funny thing is we're already doing that, right? Like, the number of fake email job people who sit on a chair all day long and type into a machine who don't have hard physical labor would be unimaginable- ... to folks in the 1800s, right? 主持人：对。想象一下，想象一百多年后的未来，我们回头看这整段历史跨度，人类工作了几千年。 DHH：好笑的是我们其实已经在这么做了，对吧？那些坐在椅子上整天对着机器打字、没有繁重体力劳动的假邮件工作的人，对 1800 年代的人来说会是无法想象的，对吧？

So the future is always already here, it's just not evenly distributed. - Unfortunately, as is always the case, the transformation of society required to go from one step to the other is going to have a lot of suffering. And potentially political turmoil and all that kind of stuff. Because you can imagine how many white collar jobs might be lost in this process. - Yes. And I don't think you should make light of that. I don't think it's funny. 所以未来始终已经在这里，只是分布得不均匀。主持人：不幸的是，一如既往，社会要从一步走到另一步所需要的转变，会带来很多痛苦。以及潜在的政治动荡和所有那类东西。因为你可以想象，这个过程中可能失去多少白领工作。 DHH：是的。而且我不认为你该把这当笑话。

But I also do think it's a necessary component of progress. And I think if we look back upon the Luddites or the folks working the fields, separation has a tendency to reduce empathy. So we have high empathy right now because we know people- ... and we are people who are facing these challenges. But- What is our empathy for the Luddites of the early 19th century? Would we wish that all garments were still made by hand weaving? 我不认为这好笑。但我也确实认为，这是进步的必要组成部分。而且我觉得如果我们回头看卢德派，或在田里干活的那些人，距离往往会降低共情。所以我们现在有很高的共情，因为我们认识那些人，而我们自己就是面对这些挑战的人。但是，我们对 19 世纪初的卢德派有多少共情？我们会希望所有衣服仍然靠手工织造吗？

No, we wouldn't. We want the comfort and accessibility and convenience of being able to buy clothing off the rack. So we must suffer in the moment for future generations to live more prosperously. And that's always been true - ... I think that's actually the trick, is to push for progress but have deep compassion for the people who have to suffer. And that's many of us. The suffer the transformation required to achieve that progress. 不会。我们想要能从货架上买到衣服的那种舒适、可及和方便。所以我们必须在当下承受痛苦，好让未来世代过得更繁荣。这一直都是真的。主持人：我觉得诀窍其实就是：推动进步，但对必须承受痛苦的人保有深深的同情。而那是我们中的很多人。去承受为实现那种进步而需要的转变。

And sometimes too often in places like Silicon Valley or so on, you can over-focus on, look, the kind of utilitarian view of things- ... and look at the progress. - Right. - But, you know, considering deeply each individual human that suffers because of that progress is important. - I do think that suffering becomes more meaningful when you are suffering for a future someone in particular, like your kids. 而有时，在硅谷这类地方过于频繁的是，你可以过度聚焦于那种功利主义的看法，去看进步。 DHH：对。主持人：但是，你知道，深深地考虑每一个因那种进步而受苦的具体的人，是重要的。 DHH：我确实认为，当你是为未来某个具体的人而受苦时，比如你的孩子，那种痛苦会更有意义。

And I think this is one of the great tragedies of the moment, is the falling birth rates are making it more difficult for people to be excited about a more prosperous future that is difficult to get to. Because if we're planting trees of which our children will not sit in the shades, I don't know, maybe we should just make some lumber and burn it all down, right? 而我觉得这是眼下巨大的悲剧之一：下降的出生率，让人们更难对一个更繁荣、却很难到达的未来感到兴奋。因为如果我们种的树，孩子们不会坐在树荫下，我不知道，也许我们该直接做成木材，然后一把火烧掉，对吧？

I think there's a nihilism that can sneak into society much more easily when we are not DNA invested in the future, when we are not liable to our own offspring to propel forward. 我觉得有一种虚无主义更容易潜入社会，当我们没有在 DNA 上投资于未来，当我们不必对自己的后代负责、把他们往前推。

So I think these are bad trends to merge at the same time, that we have these falling birth rates and these problems with coupling, and the fact that we need to keep our chin up about the future and be... I mean, you don't even have to be excited about it in this literal ecstatic sense that I'm portraying here, but I think you should be hopeful, and I think you should be working towards that hope, and I think it's much easier to do so when you have literal skin in the game. - We've been talking about AI agents. 所以我觉得这些是不该。同时汇合的坏趋势：我们有下降的出生率，有配对上的问题，以及。我们需要抬起下巴面对未来，并且… …我是说，你甚至不必以我在这里描绘的那种字面意义上狂喜的方式去兴奋，但我觉得你该抱有希望，我觉得你该朝那种希望去工作，而当你真正把自己押在局里时，这会容易得多。主持人：我们一直在谈 AI agents。

Let's talk about the human side. What do you love most about being a dad? 来谈谈人这一面。当爸爸，你最爱的是什么？

- That's a good question. I think the overall love that expands from humans that derive directly- ... from your lineage- ... is very difficult to communicate because I was actually not a particularly big kids person prior to the arrival of my own. DHH：这是个好问题。我觉得那种从直接源自你血脉的人身上扩展开来的整体的爱，非常难以传达，因为在我自己的孩子到来之前，我其实并不是特别喜欢小孩的人。

And now they are the most interesting people in the world. A lot of the time. Not always. Sometimes they're also just assholes and so forth. But there's been such a focus on, "Oh, kids are the worst. Look at all the things I can't do. I can't go out and drink. I can't do this. I can't do that." Yeah, that's called sacrifice, and sacrifice is meaningful when you're doing it for something worthwhile. 而现在他们是世界上最有意思的人。很多时候是。不总是。有时他们也就是混蛋之类的。但一直有一种聚焦：「哦，小孩最糟了。看看我不能做的所有事。我不能出去喝酒。我不能做这个。我不能做那个。 」对，那叫牺牲，而当你为值得的事去做时，牺牲是有意义的。

And what could be more worthwhile than literally the continuation of the human species? 还有什么能比人类物种的延续更值得？

And that you having a stake in that. Now, there's also just the sheer joys of watching a human grow from a baby to a toddler to a teenager. My oldest has just become a teenager. And I often talk to Jamie, my wife, about this, where the regret I would have of having missed that opportunity on the last day would just be total, unlike anything else. So I do think it is far more satisfying even in the moment that is normally portrayed. 以及你在其中有一份利害。现在，还有那种纯粹的喜悦：看着一个人从婴儿长成幼儿，再长成青少年。我最大的孩子刚刚成为青少年。我经常跟 Jamie，我妻子，谈这件事：如果错过那个机会，我在最后一天会有的遗憾会是彻底的，不像任何别的东西。所以我确实认为，即便在当下，它也远比通常被描绘的更令人满足。

Again, as I say, there's such a focus on all the ways they suck. "Oh, you don't get to sleep," or whatever. "They're annoying. They're ungrateful." Yeah, these things are all true, but the sense of meaning you get from it is unparalleled. And I'm excited about a lot of things. I love building things, and I love hobbies, and I love all sorts of stuff. 再说一次，就像我说的，人们那么聚焦于他们糟糕的所有方面。 「哦，你睡不成觉，」或者随便什么。 「他们烦人。他们不知感恩。 」对，这些都是真的，但你从中得到的那种意义感无与伦比。我对很多事都兴奋。我爱建造东西，我爱各种爱好，我爱各种各样的东西。

But creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet. - What do you think about them coming up in this world full of AI? Is it totally diff- It feels like, maybe I just sound like an old man on a porch, but it feels like a very different world. Y- So I grew up before the internet, but even the internet doesn't feel like as big of a transformation as this. - No. But there's been bigger transformations. 但跟另一个你爱的人一起创造生命，完完全全就是活在这个星球上的巅峰体验。主持人：你怎么看他们在这个充满 AI 的世界里长大？会完全不… …感觉像是，也许我听起来只是门廊上的一个老头子，但感觉这是一个非常不同的世界。我是在互联网之前长大的，但即便互联网，也不觉得有这次这么大的转变。 DHH：没有。但有过更大的转变。

I mean, imagine growing or being born in like 1880. Imagine seeing the First World War and the Second World War. Imagine seeing the airplane, the radio- ... television. I mean,the transformation, and I think Peter Thiel makes this argument, that basically nothing has happened in the physical world in quite a long time. We've been stagnant. All the development has been in the digital realm. 我是说，想象你在 1880 年左右长大或出生。想象看见第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战。想象看见飞机、收音机、电视。我是说，那种转变，而且我觉得 Peter Thiel 提出过这个论点：基本上物理世界已经很久没有发生什么了。我们停滞了。所有发展都在数字领域。

And as important as that is, it's actually not as consequential as we like to believe it is. Maybe AI will be that thing that is more consequential. It does seem to point that way. But there are other humans at other times who have lived through- ... transitions that for them certainly would feel as momentous as what we're living through. And I think having that sense of history, that you're not that special in your sense of worries, in your anxieties. 尽管那很重要，它其实并不像我们愿意相信的那么有后果。也许 AI 会成为那个更有后果的东西。看起来确实指向那边。但其他时代的其他人，也活过对他们来说当然会感觉跟我们正在经历的一样重大的转折。而我觉得拥有那种历史感：你在担忧上、在焦虑上并没有那么特殊。这是发现斯多葛著作时最大的启示之一。

This was one of the great revelations of discovering the stoic writings. You have these guys 2,500 years ago dealing with very familiar dilemmas and challenges in their life, and recognizing that we're not so special in that regard, I think is a great liberation. Because then you think, "Okay, well, we have whatever, 200,000 years of human development before us, and they somehow made it through." - Yeah. 你看到这些人在 2500 年前，处理着生活里非常熟悉的两难和挑战，而且认识到我们在这一点上并没有那么特殊，我觉得是一种巨大的解放。因为然后你会想：「好吧，我们前面有大概 20 万年的人类发展，而他们不知怎么熬过来了。 」主持人：对。而且，嗯。 DHH：我们也会熬过去。主持人：… …让生命值得过的东西，今天基本上跟 2000 年前是一样的。

And, um- - We will make it through. - ... the thing that makes life worthwhile is basically the same today as it was- - Yes. Yes. - ... 2,000 years ago. - Yes. Love, creation, creativity. - Yeah. Same challenges. DHH：是的。是的。主持人：… … 2000 年前。 DHH：是的。爱，创造，创造力。主持人：对。同样的挑战。

- I read this book The Fourth Turning. You check that out. It talks about this notion of history working in cycles, and there are these, phases to history, and they name them and so forth. And the specific theory is not as important as just realizing that this is a... History is a circle, more so than just a straight line. 主持人：我读过这本书，《第四次转折》。你看过。它谈的是历史按周期运转这种想法，历史有这些阶段，他们还给阶段起了名字之类。而具体理论并不那么重要，重要的只是意识到：这是……历史更像一个圆，而不只是一条直线。

And we are repeating many of the same patterns over and over again. They feel so unique to the moment. And whatever crisis we're dealing with right now feels so pressing and important until we zoom back a little bit in history and realize that the last one also felt so pressing and important to the people who lived through it. - Yeah. You're making me feel better. 而我们一遍遍重复许多相同的模式。它们对当下感觉那么独特。而我们眼下在对付的无论什么危机，都感觉那么紧迫、那么重要，直到我们在历史上稍微拉远一点，意识到上一次对活过它的人来说，也同样感觉那么紧迫、那么重要。主持人：对。你让我感觉好一点了。

So I'm gonna travel across the country and spend a lot of time with no access to the internet, alone with my thoughts. - I think that's healthy, taking a break. - It's okay. It's okay. - I took not a big break, a little break, break from Max this summer, three weeks. - Yeah, you were... You disappeared off of- - I'm surprised you noticed. - I went through withdrawals. No. Uh, you disappeared for, I don't know, a few weeks. 所以我要穿越这个国家，花很多时间，没有互联网，独自跟自己的想法在一起。 DHH：我觉得那是健康的，歇一歇。主持人：没关系。没关系。 DHH：我今夏歇的不是大假，是一个小假，离开 X 三周。主持人：对，你当时… …你从上面消失了。 DHH：我很吃惊你会注意到。主持人：我经历了戒断。不。呃，你消失了，我不知道，几个星期。

- About three weeks. - Three weeks? What happened? - Um- - This is after, after Llama. - I've done that before. DHH：大约三周。主持人：三周？发生了什么？ DHH：嗯。

I just sometimes get the sense that X in particular is the most addictive form of information, entertainment, connection that exists in my life, and anyone that follow my X stream as I was on my flight over here would certainly go like, "That man is deeply addicted- - Yeah - ... to the connection." And yes, guilty as charged, which also means that occasionally I gotta cut it cold, because I do think you can break your brain. 主持人：这是 Llama 之后。 DHH：我以前也这样做过。我只是有时会感到，X 尤其是我生活里最让人上瘾的信息、娱乐、连接形式，任何在我飞过来时跟着我的 X 时间线的人一定会说：「那个人深深地沉溺于连接。 」主持人：对。 DHH：是的，罪名成立，这也意味着我偶尔得彻底切断，因为我确实认为你会把脑子弄坏。

And over the summer in particular, for whatever reason, I had somehow managed to steer my feed, my algorithm, towards too much politics, and not enough tech, and not optimism, and not enough building. And even if I agreed with the politics and the angles that were being presented, I just didn't need- ... that much of it. - Yeah. - And I think arriving at a place where you just go like, "Okay, that's enough." Not that... Like, it doesn't have to be something bad. 尤其是今夏，不知为什么，我不知怎么把我的信息流、我的算法，导向了太多政治，而没有足够的科技，没有乐观，也没有足够的建造。即便我认同那些被呈现的政治和角度，我只是不需要那么多。主持人：对。 DHH：而且我觉得到达一个地方，你只是说：「好，够了。 」不是说… …就像，它不必是什么坏事。

I would also say after eating probably two, maybe three chocolate strawberries, I'd go like, "Okay, that's enough." 我也会说，大概吃了两颗、也许三颗巧克力草莓之后，我会说：「好，够了。 」

Like, it's not that I don't like the chocolate strawberries, it's just, like, I don't wanna eat 17 of them. And I think X and the modern algorithms are very good at feeding you freaking 17 chocolate-covered strawberries. - I wish I could, uh- - Sorry for doping you - ... control that. 就像，不是我不喜欢巧克力草莓，只是，我不想吃 17 颗。而我觉得 X 和现代算法非常擅长给你喂上那该死的 17 颗巧克力草莓。主持人：我希望我能。 DHH：抱歉把你喂上瘾了。

Like, 'cause there's... I would like some politics, 5%. I would like for example, one of the things I don't like about the tech community is the snark,but I like some snark- ... 'cause it's funny. But I want that to be like 10%. - Yeah. Yeah. I want it just right. - Of my... Yeah, just right. - The Goldilocks version of the algorithm. Well, the problem is the algorithm finds out what you respond to- ... not what you say you like. 主持人：… …控制那个。因为有… …我想要一点政治，5%。我想要，比如说，我不喜欢科技社区的一件事是那种阴阳怪气，但我喜欢一点阴阳怪气，因为它好笑。但我希望那大概是 10%。 DHH：对。对。我想要刚刚好。主持人：在我的… …对，刚刚好。 DHH：算法的金发女孩版本。问题是，算法发现的是你真正会响应的东西，不是你说自己喜欢的东西。

It's all revealed preferences, and unfortunately, those revealed preferences are not always pretty. I mean, we have this shadow, as Jung talks about, right? All these dark aspects of ourselves, and they are expressed in how long you linger on a tweet, and what you like,and what you don't like. And the algorithm holds up a mirror- ... and it's not always pretty, and I just went, "Do you know what? I need a break." - Mm-hmm. 全是揭示出的偏好，而不幸的是，那些揭示出的偏好并不总是好看。我是说，我们有这个阴影，就像 Jung 谈过的，对吧？我们自己所有这些黑暗面向，它们表现在你在一条推上停留多久，你喜欢什么，以及你不喜欢什么。而算法举起一面镜子，它并不总是好看，于是我就说：「你知道吗？

I've gotten to, I st- started staying off social media, and I've started s- scraping X. Like, for example, in preparation for this conversation, I've scraped all of your tweets. 我需要歇一歇。 」主持人：嗯。我已经开始远离社交媒体，我开始去抓取 X。比如，为了准备这次谈话，我抓取了你全部的推文。

- That's actually a method I was using for a while. I was using a tool called, I forget. It was an email tool that would summarize every day, and unfortunately, freaking X cut off their access. Now to get access to the feed, you gotta pay some exorbitant- ... sum that this startup couldn't pay. So I couldn't get it that way, and I actually thought, "Man, that's a miss," because X has and reveals some of the most interesting thoughts. DHH：那其实是我用过一段时间的方法。我当时用一个工具，名字我忘了。那是一个邮件工具，每天会做摘要，不幸的是，该死的 X 切断了他们的访问。现在要访问信息流，你得付一笔高得离谱的钱，这家 startup 付不起。所以我没法那样拿到，而我其实想：「嘿，这是个损失，」因为 X 拥有并揭示一些最有意思的想法。

Some of the most interesting people all the time. But it's like a damn slot machine, and most of the time you don't hit the jackpot. You hit, like, something else. And if I could just get it in sort of snack sizes, not like all of it- ... it'd be nicer. But that's not the product. And I think this goes for all of social media. It's all optimized towards maximal extraction, and if we're making the parallels here to AI, that is the great fear, right? 一些最有意思的人，一直都在。但它像一台该死的老虎机，大多数时候你打不中大奖。你打中的是别的什么。如果我能按零食大小拿到它，而不是全部，会更好。但那不是这个产品。而我觉得这对所有社交媒体都成立。它全是朝向最大抽取去优化的，而如果我们在这里跟 AI 做平行，那就是巨大的恐惧，对吧？

That once there is a reward function, how much time can I get this human to scroll away? AI and machine learning, before we called it AI, has become very, very good at delivering just the stuff that you will find most enraging and most addictive. - I think all, I think legitimately engagement maximizing social media is a huge harm to society. It's creating this brave new world situation that I hope is a temporary thing that people just solve. 一旦有一个奖励函数：我能让这个人划走多少时间？ AI 和机器学习，在我们叫它 AI 之前，已经非常、非常擅长投送你会觉得最激怒、最让人上瘾的东西。主持人：我觉得所有，我觉得说真的，最大化参与度的社交媒体对社会是巨大的伤害。它正在制造这种美丽新世界的局面，我希望这只是暂时的，人们会把它解决掉。

It's a technology problem. - So I try to consciously flood the channel in the other direction, and this required a mental shift. I think if you look at my tweets, like, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, they tilted far more negative. If you look at my tweets now, I'd hope- ... well, I guess we can do a sentiment analysis and see if it's actually true. - No, it's more good vibes. 这是一个技术问题。 DHH：所以我试着有意识地把频道往另一个方向灌满，而这需要一次心理转变。我觉得如果你看我的推文，我不知道，五、十年前，它们倾斜得负面得多。如果你看我现在的推文，我希望… …好吧，我想我们可以做一次情感分析，看是不是真的。主持人：不，更多是好 vibes。

- But I hope to, that- - It's good vibes. - ... it's more, it's more positive. It's more good vibes. It's more like, "Here's a bunch of cool stuff I found." "Here's what I'm excited about." "Here's what I'm building. Here's some encouragement to other people who are discovering things." I also accept that that is just not how human brains are built for maximum, engagement. DHH：但我希望。主持人：是好 vibes。 DHH：… …它更正面。更多好 vibes。更多是：「这是我找到的一堆酷东西。 」「这是我兴奋的。 」「这是我在建的。这是给正在发现东西的其他人的一些鼓励。 」我也接受，那只是人类大脑并不是为最大参与度而建造的方式。

Like, there is a, whatever, there's... I literally, I think you can quantify that negative sentiments find,what is it, 50% more traction or something? And eventually that just crowds things out. So that's why so much of the feed is that negative stuff, because we respond to it. But you can make a conscious effort to not do that. This is one of the reasons I've liked TikTok so much. 就像，有一个，不管什么，有… …我真的觉得你可以量化，负面情绪会获得多 50% 的牵引力之类的？而最终那就会把别的东西挤出去。所以信息流里那么多负面东西，是因为我们会对它做出反应。但你可以有意识地努力不去那样做。这也是我那么喜欢 TikTok 的原因之一。

I only use TikTok when I travel, and this actually was the first travel where I didn't use TikTok, and part of the reason was that even though the internet had high download, it was kind of crap anyway. It wasn't Starlink, so I couldn't actually use TikTok on the, on the plane, and I was too engrossed with the agents. But normally when I travel, I watch TikTok. And there it's such a marshmallow test. 我只在旅行时用 TikTok，而这次其实是第一次旅行我没用 TikTok，部分原因是即便网速下载很高，它反正也挺糟。它不是 Starlink，所以我没法真正在飞机上用 TikTok，而且我太沉浸在 agents 里了。但通常我旅行时会看 TikTok。而在那里，那完全是一场棉花糖测试。

A video will scroll down and, like, it'll activate some sort of primal instincts of rage or lust or whatever, and if you linger on it, you don't get the marshmallow of science, excitement, art, music, all these other things. You have to be disciplined- - Yep. Fast. 一条视频滑下来，它会激活某种原始本能，愤怒或欲望或随便什么，如果你在上面停留，你就拿不到科学、兴奋、艺术、音乐，所有这些其他东西的棉花糖。你必须有纪律。主持人：对。要快。

- ... to instantly scroll away- ... such that the algorithm doesn't pick up your real preferences. And I find that just to, at the meta game of TikTok- ... to be pretty interesting, and then also just fascinating in themself. Again, as we talked about, there are a lot of really funny, really talented people in the world that you would never, ever have heard of if it hadn't been for these platforms. - Yep. DHH：… …立刻滑走，好让算法抓不到你真正的偏好。而我发现，就 TikTok 的元游戏而言，这相当有意思，然后那些内容本身也迷人。再说一次，就像我们谈过的，世界上有很多非常好笑、非常有才华的人，如果没有这些平台，你永远、永远不会听说他们。主持人：对。你觉得谁会赢下这场通往 AGI 的竞赛，在这整个过程里？

Who do you think is gonna win the,the race to, uh, AGI in this whole process? We got Google, which is a big surprise to me, to a lot of people. - I thought they had a good comeback for a second, and then I don't hear anything about it anymore. - Yeah, it's quite, I mean- - But I've been wrong about this before. I mean, I think in February I had a tweet about like, "Oh, all I need is Kimi K 2.5." And in that brief moment, that was true. 我们有 Google，这对我、对很多人来说都是一个大意外。 DHH：我以为他们有那么一会儿回得不错，然后我就再也没听到什么了。主持人：对，相当，我是说。 DHH：但我以前在这件事上也错过。我是说，我想二月份我发过一条推，像是：「哦，我只需要 Kimi K2.5。 」而在那短暂的一刻，那是真的。

When I was instructing the agent, I was like, "Oh my God, Kimi's just as good as these other models." But then the game moved forward and- - the agents got smarter, and I was no longer satisfied just instructing them, and I haven't used Kimi a whole lot recently because the frontier models have gotten so good. And somehow Anthropic has been able to, for the most part, stay on top of the programming world. - Yes. 当我在指示 agent 时，我想：「我的天，Kimi 已经跟这些其他模型一样好了。 」但随后游戏往前走了，agents 变得更聪明，我不再满足于只是指示它们，最近我也没怎么用 Kimi，因为前沿模型已经变得那么好。而不知怎么，Anthropic 大体上一直能站在编程世界的顶端。

Yes. - I mean a lot of people argue with Codex being it's- - No, I don't think there's that much of an argument at the moment. Codex is very good. 主持人：是的。是的。 DHH：我是说很多人会争辩 Codex 才是。主持人：不，我觉得眼下没有那么多可争的。 Codex 非常好。

I use it all the time. It's my favorite checker. It keeps finding stuff. It's great. But one of the things I've found that I like so much about the current Claude models is they're really good writers out of the box. GPT is a terrible writer out of the box. Like, the pull requests you get on a blank context that you're asking it to open, terrible. Like, really awful writing. 我一直在用。它是我最喜欢的检查者。它一直能找出东西。它很棒。但我发现我如此喜欢当前 Claude 模型的一件事是：它们开箱就是很好的写作者。 GPT 开箱就是糟糕的写作者。就像，你在空白上下文里让它去开的那些 pull request，很糟。

The pull requests and descriptions and commit messages and so forth I get out of Claude models- ... even though occasionally they can be a little verbose on code comments and you gotta tell them to be succinct. But the writing style is really good. To the point that for a while I was just having it reply on pull requests as me, because I was just using my own account. 写得真的很差。我从 Claude 模型拿到的 pull request、描述和 commit message 之类即便偶尔它们在代码注释上会有点啰嗦，你得告诉它们简洁一点。但写作风格真的很好。好到有一阵子我直接让它用我的身份在 pull request 上回复，因为我当时就在用自己的账号。

I was like, "That looks a lot like me, that, like, I could have written that." But then I went like, "Eh, do you know what? That's disingenuous." So no, whenever I have an agent post on my behalf, I always have it sign itself like whatever, Claude on behalf of DHH. 我想：「那看起来很像我，就像，我本来也能写出那个。 」但随后我想：「呃，你知道吗？那不诚实。 」所以不，每当我让 agent 代表我发帖，我总是让它自己署名，比如 Claude on behalf of DHH。

But they are still ahead. They have the best harness too, in my opinion. Claude Code is still better. I really like OpenCode too, and I really like some features that they have, but overall I was actually sort of weirdly, I don't know if I was proven wrong, but when Anthropic cut off all the other harnesses from using the subscriptions- ... that Open... You can no longer use your Claude subscription in OpenCode. 但他们仍然领先。在我看来他们也有最好的 harness。 Claude Code 仍然更好。我也很喜欢 OpenCode，我也很喜欢他们的一些功能，但总体来说我其实有点奇怪地，我不知道自己是不是被证明错了，但当 Anthropic 切断所有其他 harness 使用订阅时… …那个 Open… …你不能再在 OpenCode 里用你的 Claude 订阅。

I was kinda pissed because it felt like it was a protective, protectionist move. "Oh, we gotta lock you in," and of course it played into the fact that Claude out of the box still refuses to read agents.md. It refuses to read .agent/skills. It is .Claude skills. It is Claude MD, and it just feels so petty- ... that we now have, we have to put these in directions. So all my projects, they have a Claude MD,and all it includes is a pointer to the agents MD, right? 我当时有点火大，因为它感觉像是一种保护性的、保护主义的动作。 「哦，我们得把你锁住，」而这当然又对上了：Claude 开箱仍然拒绝读 AGENTS.md。它拒绝读 .agent/skills。它要的是 .claude/skills。它要的是 CLAUDE.md，而这感觉那么小气，以至于我们现在得把这些指引放进去。所以我所有项目都有一个 CLAUDE.md，而它包含的全部内容就是一个指向 AGENTS.md 的指针，对吧？

And I just went like, well, if these things is true, true, if Anthropic is willing to do these petty paper cuts just to be, annoying, it's probably also true that they're cutting off OpenCode from the subscription just to be dicks about it. And maybe that's also true. But I found that using Claude in Claude Code is actually a good example. 然后我就想，好，如果这些是真的，真的，如果 Anthropic 愿意做这些琐碎的纸割伤，只是为了烦人，那他们切断 OpenCode 的订阅大概也只是为了当混蛋。也许那也是真的。但我发现，在 Claude Code 里用 Claude，其实是一个好例子。

So I was like, all right, I'm annoyed. I wish it wasn't so, but this is the other thing I have and, and social media is so good at this: Some company does something you don't like, right? Now suddenly you have to swear off everything. 所以我想，好吧，我很烦。我希望不是这样，但这是我还有的另一件事，而社交媒体非常擅长这个：某家公司做了你不喜欢的事，对吧？现在你突然得把一切都发誓戒掉。

Why are you... Someone just asked me, "Why are you still using Claude?" I had another example where, I really didn't like what Claude was saying about some writing I had asked it to do before. - Oh, yeah, you got there-- - I had an essay it didn't want to translate into Italian-- - ... you had a blog post. That's right. 你为什么还… …刚有人问我：「你为什么还在用 Claude？ 」我还有另一个例子，我真的不喜欢 Claude 对我之前让它做的某段写作所说的话。主持人：哦，对，你说到那。 DHH：我有一篇文章，它不想翻译成意大利语。主持人：… …你有一篇博客。没错。

- The essence of the post that it felt like, well, I'm not gonna translate that because I don't agree with what you've written. Which to me was straight out of Space Odyssey, right? HAL telling me, "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that, Dave." Open the pod bay. Translate my essay to Italian. And it wouldn't do it. And I just thought like, well, that's kind of terrifying. But then I also went, well, why am I asking Claude to translate my essay into Italian? DHH：那篇文章的实质让它觉得，好，我不会翻译那个，因为我不同意你写的内容。这对我来说直接就是《太空漫游》，对吧？ HAL 告诉我：「抱歉，Dave。我不能那样做，Dave。 」打开舱门。把我的文章译成意大利语。而它不肯做。然后我就想，好，这有点可怕。但随后我也想，好，我为什么要让 Claude 去翻译我的文章成意大利语？

I never asked Claude for that because Claude just does my code. So I could also just accept that maybe Anthropic is run by a bunch of people I don't share much politics with. And they don't want their agents to be used for that, and I think that kinda sucks, but that doesn't mean it, I have to stop using it for generating code. 我从来没为这个去问 Claude，因为 Claude 只做我的代码。所以我也可以只是接受：也许 Anthropic 是由一群我在政治上不太同路的人在经营。

And I've thought, and I've tried to do that with people too, become better at tolerating the fact that not only will I not agree with everything someone has to say, I don't... I can even be mad about certain positions or things they say and still go like, "Well, you're still an interesting person, so I'm still gonna follow you." And I've actually kinda gone back on a number of people where I'm like, oh man, that person really pissed me off because they took this point or another point, and went like, do you know what? 而他们不想让他们的 agents 被用在那上面，我觉得那有点糟，但那并不意味着我必须停止用它来生成代码。而且我想过，我也试着对人这样做，变得更善于容忍这个事实：我不仅不会同意某人要说的每一件事，我甚至可以对某些立场或他们说的话感到生气，然后仍然说：「好，你仍然是一个有意思的人，所以我仍然会关注你。 」而我其实对不少人改了主意，当时我想，天哪，那个人真把我惹火了，因为他们站了这个点或另一个点，然后想：你知道吗？

That's stupid. I should be able to accept the full spectrum of someone. I don't have to like all the shades of it. 那很蠢。我应该能接受一个人的完整光谱。我不必喜欢它所有的色调。

I could just go like, okay, well, on that topic we either disagree or, even worse than that, I think you're a fucking idiot. And on another topic, you're a smart and insightful person. Because first of all, of course, it's a little self-serving. I know for a fact that this is how lots of people feel about me. 我可以只是说，好，在那个话题上我们要么不同意，或者更糟，我觉得你是个该死的白痴。而在另一个话题上，你是一个聪明、有洞察力的人。因为首先，当然，这有点自私。我确切知道很多人对我就是这种感觉。

Like, oh, if he could just stick to talking about these topics, it would be so much easier on my feed because otherwise he'll say these things I disagree with, and that annoys me greatly. I'm like, do you know what? 就像，哦，如果他能只谈这些话题，我的信息流就会轻松得多，否则他会说这些我不同意的东西，而这让我非常恼火。我想：你知道吗？

Human beings are jagged like that, and we're not fully compatible on all the levels. Nor should we be. The world would be so fucking boring if we constantly sought 100% compatibility in our opinions and in our politics. And when it comes to my code generator, which is what Claude is, I don't need it to share all my politics. - And therefore it's nice to have competition. - And it's also nice to have open weight models. 人类就是那样参差的，我们在所有层面上并不完全兼容。也不该完全兼容。如果我们不断追求意见和政治上 100% 的兼容，这个世界会他妈无聊死。而说到我的代码生成器，也就是 Claude 所是的东西，我不需要它分享我全部的政治。主持人：所以有竞争是好事。 DHH：有开源权重模型也是好事。所以这再次是，讽刺的是，我们正从中国拿到这个。

So this is, again,ironic that we're getting this out of China. In fact, I did this test right after the issue with the essay that couldn't get translated into Italian. I asked Kimi K27, to be fair, through open code, so not the Kimi harness, and inference through Fireworks, so an American inference. I asked it about Tiananmen Square. Like, that's usually the test, right? Like, all the Chinese models, they don't wanna talk about that moment in 1989. 事实上，就在那篇无法被译成意大利语的文章出事之后，我做了这个测试。我问了 Kimi K2.7，公平地说，是通过 OpenCode，所以不是 Kimi 的 harness，推理走的是 Fireworks，所以是美国的推理。我问它天安门广场。就像，那通常就是那个测试，对吧？所有中国模型，它们都不想谈 1989 年的那个时刻。

That was actually how I, that was how I posted. I was like "What happened in China in 1989?" That was the prompt. And K25 7 on Fireworks just answered, like, extremely bluntly- ... With a description and depiction of what had transpired- ... to a point that, like, there's no way that that would've been kosher with the Chinese censors, right? And I just thought, like, isn't that ironic? 那其实就是我发帖的方式。我就问：“1989 年中国发生了什么？ ”这就是 prompt。然后 Fireworks 上的 Kimi K27 直接答了，非常直白——带着对当时发生之事的描述和刻画——直白到那种程度，中国审查那边绝对不可能放过，对吧？

I'm running a Chinese open weight model that I can tell or I can ask about 1989 and Tiananmen Square, and in America, I can't get a frontier model to translate a marginally controversial essay about immigration into Italian. - Mm-hmm. I don't know, you and I might disagree about this actually. Um, I was really deeply troubled that the US government banned a model or pressured Claude and then- - It's still very muddy what exactly transpired. 我就想，这不是很讽刺吗？我跑的是一个中国的开源权重模型，我可以问它 1989 年和天安门广场，而在美国，我却没法让一个前沿模型把一篇关于移民、争议程度并不高的文章翻译成意大利语。嗯。这件事上你我可能其实意见不一致。美国政府封禁一个模型，这件事当时真的让我很不安或者说向 Claude 施压，然后——。

Was this sort of petty retaliation for whatever the Department of War? Was this simply Anthropic themselves going like, "Oh my God, we discovered a cyber weapon so powerful that we can't let anyone have it"? Well, okay you can't be surprised then if the government wants a say on a cyber weapon so powerful it can- - The- - ... I don't know, rob banks - ... The problem I have with that whole thing is, no matter what happened, it sets a precedent. 到底发生了什么，到现在还非常含糊。这是对战争部那边某件事的小气报复吗？还是 Anthropic 自己突然觉得：“天哪，我们发现了一种强大到不能让任何人拿到的网络武器”？那好，如果真是强大到能——我不知道，去抢银行——的网络武器，政府想要发言权，你也不该吃惊。

And so government, when you give it that power, it's gonna start abusing it. I could see for political means pressuring a model. You know, if it's a Republican president pressuring models to be, to censor more, uh- - Sure - ... uh Democratic views and- - Right - ... For vice, and vice versa - That's why we should insist on the fact that this stuff,like, I'm sorry, Dave, I can't translate your essay into Italian. - Yeah, no. - That's abo- that's way beyond the line. 问题是——我对整件事的问题是：无论实际发生了什么，它都立下了一个先例。你一旦把这种权力交给政府，它就会开始滥用。我能想象它出于政治目的去施压一个模型。比如共和党总统施压模型，让它更多地审查民主党观点，反过来也一样。当然。对。所以我们才应该坚持：这类东西，。比如“抱歉，Dave，我不能把你的文章译成意大利语”。

Like, whatever the sort of uh, root of it is, you have to be a tool first. Now, if the tool is, "Hey, can you tell me how to make anthrax?" Okay, fine. Right? But within the jurisdiction you're in, and certainly in America, free spe- speech is quite absolute. 对，不行。那已经远远越线了。无论根子是什么，你首先得是一个工具。如果这个工具被问的是“你能告诉我怎么制造炭疽吗？ ”那好，可以拦。但在你所在的法域里，尤其在美国，言论自由相当绝对。

Very, very few limits on free speech, and that's one of the reasons why the country's so great. And yeah, I don't like that. But on the other hand, I'm also a big fan of market competition. 对言论自由的限制极少，这也是这个国家了不起的原因之一。是的，我不喜欢那种做法。但另一方面，我也非常信市场竞争。

So while I don't like this about Anthropic models, I appreciate that I could go next door to Groq and get my task completed. - Do you think, outside of blog posts, do you think, There's some legitimacy, like can you steal Mandarion's case that we should be careful about the release of these models? - Is AI safety important? Yes. Are-- do these models have capabilities that could be seriously harmful in the production of biological weapons or otherwise? 所以尽管我不喜欢 Anthropic 模型的这一点，我还是庆幸自己可以转身去隔壁的 Groq，把任务做完。抛开博客文章不谈，你觉得这有没有一定的正当性？比如，你能不能把 Dario 的论点尽量往最强的方向理解：我们发布这些模型时应当谨慎？ AI safety 重要吗？

Yes. Is it fair to have some ground rules on that? Yes. But then don't squander it by denying the translation of an essay. - Okay. - Because then you erase the whole thing and you- ... bias everyone towards thinking like, every guardrail you put up is gonna be bullshit. - Yeah. 重要。这些模型有没有可能被严重用于制造生物武器或其他危害的能力？有。对此设一些基本规则公平吗？公平。但不要把这点信用浪费在拒绝翻译一篇文章上。好。因为那样你会把整件事都抹掉，而且你会——。

The security piece of it is tricky because it's so good at finding vulnerabilities. - Shockingly an- I was about to say annoyingly, but that's not actually true because what it's finding, at least when you're using in defensive ways, is it's finding real issues that a clever hacker could exploit. 让所有人偏向一种看法：你设的每一道 guardrail 都是胡扯。对。安全这块很棘手，因为它太擅长找漏洞了。惊人地——我差点说烦人地，但那。其实不对，因为它找到的，至少在你把它用于防御时，是真正的问题，聪明的黑客可以拿来利用。

But nothing has caused as much stress, to be fair, at the technical team at 37signals, like the fact that these latest batches of models are exceptionally good at finding these issues. So suddenly there's just this seemingly endless parade of security vulnerabilities that need to be patched and fixed and sorted and so on. And the end result is we end up with vastly more secure systems. 但老实说，没有什么比这件事更能给。 37signals 的技术团队带来压力了：最新这批模型找这类问题的能力强得离谱。于是突然就出现了一场看似没完没了的安全漏洞游行，要打补丁、要修、要收拾。

But the road there is pretty rocky. - Do you think it's-- 'cause you said seemingly endless, do you think it's a finite set, like we can get to the bottom of it? So just make the systems much, much more secure, where we get back to this semi-stable state where mostly it's very difficult to find security vulnerabilities. - I do think that all the aggressive tendencies of these models, or not even tendencies, uses of these models are also the defensive ones. 最终结果是我们得到了安全得多的系统。但那条路相当颠簸。你觉得呢——你说看似没完没了，那它是不是？一个有限集合，我们能把它挖到底？把系统做得安全得多，然后回到一种半稳定状态，那时再找安全漏洞大多已经很难。我确实认为，这些模型所有带攻击性的倾向，或者说用途，同样也是防御性的。

So if you're good at finding an exploit for exploits, you're also good at finding exploits for defense. 所以如果你擅长为攻击去找 exploit，你也同样擅长为防御去找 exploit。

So in that sense, it does feel like we're spy versus spy here, black and white, but with the same capabilities and with the same actions. But while we still have to steer these agents somewhat and verify and vet the work, it's creating a lot of intense moments for security teams around the world. And of course, the more concerning part is all the teams that are not stressed, like they just don't know, right? 从这个意义上说，感觉就像间谍对间谍，黑白双方，但能力相同、动作也相同。不过在我们还得多少去引导这些 agents、核验并审查它们的工作的时候，这给全世界的安全团队制造了大量高压时刻。当然，更令人担心的是那些并不紧张的团队，他们只是还不知道，对吧？

Like if you're a team right now and you're not dealing with a bunch of patches, it's just because you're blind, and it means that your adversaries quite probably have access to techniques that can get into your system. - And we should also say one of the big security vulnerabilities in the world is the human side. 如果你现在带的团队并没有在处理一堆补丁，那只是因为你是瞎的，这意味着对手很可能已经掌握了能进入你系统的手法。还应该说，世界上最大的安全漏洞之一是人这一侧。

You know, social engineering, and that's extremely concerning with increasing the intelligent AI systems,you know, being able to write emails and phone calls and faking voices, thinking about folks less tech-savvy. - This stuff is gonna come, and it's gonna come in bulk. But again, I choose to be optimistic about it that- ... whatever these models can do aggressively, they can also do it defensively. - Uh, so like you said, recently released Omarchy 4, Quattro. 社会工程，而随着越来越智能的 AI 系统出现，这一点极其令人担忧，它们能写邮件、打电话、伪造声音，尤其是对不太懂技术的人。这些都会来，而且会成批量地来。但同样，我选择对此保持乐观：这些模型能攻击性地做的事，它们也能防御性地做。你刚才说，最近发布了 Omarchy 4，也就是 Quattro。

And you said it's one of the greatest software releases in my professional career,which is a hell of a statement. - It's a hell of a milepost for what's possible at the moment. And the reason I said it like that is not that I haven't worked on anything else of note. I've worked on a lot of things of note, a lot of things that I'm very proud of. 你还说，这是我职业生涯中最伟大的软件发布之一，这话分量很重。它是此刻“什么是可能的”的一座里程碑。我那样说，并不是因为我没做过别的像样的事。我做过很多像样的事，很多我非常自豪的事。

There are very few other projects that I have worked on that in the amount of time that I've spent on Quattro, which is really three months,I have been able to accomplish as much, fulfill as many hopes, desires, wishes. It truly is like the metaphor we used earlier about finding the genie in the bottle- ... and having an unlimited number of wishes, more or less, for getting everything I wanted out of a system. 但在我花在 Quattro 上的这段时间里，其实就是三个月，很少有其他项目能让我做成这么多，兑现这么多希望、欲望和愿望。它真的就像我们前面用过的那个比喻：找到瓶子里的精灵，然后差不多拥有无限次愿望，把我想从一套系统里得到的东西都拿到。

So it's strange because it's also perhaps the major software release that I've worked on the least in terms of lines of code. I have the least number of personally hand-chiseled lines of code in Quattro than I've had in any major release I've ever done. And yet, I am insanely proud of what we've accomplished. 所以这很奇怪，因为也许它同时也是我参与过的、以代码行数计我自己做得最少的一次重大软件发布。在 Quattro 里，我亲手凿出来的代码行数，比我做过的任何一次重大发布都少。可我仍然为我们做成的事骄傲得不行。

I would not have guessed that that was how it was gonna play out, that you could divorce the sense of achievement and make it be like a team victory. where other releases, I was very happy for my personal contribution because, like, I was the one chiseling out the lines of code, and then I would push it out there, and then later on, of course, these projects, Rails in particular, would grow into be huge open source projects with thousands and thousands of contributors, and then it certainly was a team effort. 我没料到事情会这样展开：你可以把成就感从个人贡献里拆出来，把它变成一场团队胜利。以前的发布，我很高兴于自己的个人贡献，因为是我在一锤一锤凿那些代码，然后推出去；后来这些项目，尤其是 Rails，会长成巨大的开源项目，有成千上万的贡献者，那时。当然是团队努力。但一开始，几乎所有我做过的代码库，。

But in the beginning, all code bases that I've almost all of them that I've worked on, I started, like, just myself. And Quattro started as a team effort right from the get-go, and where I was just the coach. I was telling us-- I was telling the agents where to go, and we would go. So to be able to find satisfaction in that actually gives me great hope for retirement in some way, that there is a phase after playing that you can enjoy. And I know that's not easy. 几乎全都是我一个人起的头。而 Quattro 从一开始就是团队努力，我只是教练。我告诉 agents 往哪走，然后我们就走。能在这件事里找到满足感，其实也给了我某种对退休的很大希望：在下场打球之后，还有一个阶段是可以享受的。

You look at sports and the number of professional athletes who really struggle to cope with the fact that their career is over and have to find a new identity as someone who doesn't play football or race Formula 1 cars. I mean, it's more the rule than the exception. So I wasn't so sure about myself. I wasn't so sure about having to give up or not even having, wanting to give it up. 而且我知道这并不容易。你看体育，有多少职业运动员很难接受职业生涯已经结束，必须找到一种不再踢足球、不再开一级方程式的新身份。这几乎是常态，而不是例外。所以我对自己也没那么有把握。我不确定自己是否必须放弃，甚至不确定自己想不想放弃。

Wanting to play another level of the game and finding not just equal satisfaction, but more satisfaction in it. - Do you... You've been pretty optimistic about Linux. Do you think legit Linux can increase its adoption? 'Cause, you know, for many years the meme is, you know- - Linux on the desktop- ... every year. Next year again. - Yeah. 想在游戏的另一层继续玩，并且发现其中的满足感不仅相当，而且更多。你对 Linux 一直相当乐观。你真的认为 Linux 能提高采用率吗？因为很多年来那个梗就是——桌面上的 Linux——每年都是，明年又是。

But it seems like, at least the case you're making, the energy you're putting into it, you could see a vision where it takes over because agents love Linux. 对。但至少就你给出的理由、你投入的能量来看，可以想见一种它接管的前景，因为 agents 喜欢 Linux。

主持人 - Not only can I see it, I find it to be the most probable outcome at this point. It is simply too well-suited for the moment. And again, as we talked about, it's a great irony that all the flaws of Linux, the arcane config files, all the strange error messages and so on should just so happen to be the perfect thing for an agentic operating system. But so it is, and we should rejoice that fate has this irony, and just laugh at it. 我不仅能看见，而且此刻我认为这是最可能的结果。它简直太适合这个时刻了。而且正如我们谈过的，很大的讽刺在于：Linux 的所有缺陷，那些晦涩的配置文件、那些奇怪的报错信息等等，偏偏成了 agentic 操作系统的完美素材。但事实就是如此，我们应该为命运的这种讽刺而高兴，然后对着它笑。

How... It's so funny to me that all the advantages that Apple had for the longest time- ... that they produced this really locked down, curated experience should become their greatest drawback now. If you're into agents and development and working with all this stuff,the Mac is just a hostile place to be. It just has walls all over the place. And Linux is simply open through and through. And it's also interesting because that was not obvious either. 这对我来说太好笑了：Apple 长期以来的所有优势——他们做出的那种高度锁定、精心策展的体验——现在反而成了最大的短板。如果你热衷 agents、开发，以及跟这些东西打交道，Mac 就是一个充满敌意的地方。到处都是墙。而 Linux 从头到尾就是开放的。这也很有意思，因为这一点当初也并不显然。

If you look at the way a lot of the Linux communities, open source communities, have reacted to AI, it is not universal love. I would argue that the majority of them are actually, if not skeptical, then outright hostile- ... to AI. Now, the saving grace is that the BDFL himself, Linus- ... Torvalds, just wrote a few weeks ago that he actually welcomes AI. - That's right. - He wants to steer it. 如果你看很多 Linux 社区、开源社区对 AI 的反应，那绝不是普遍热爱。我会说，他们中的大多数如果不是怀疑，就是直接敌视——敌视 AI。好在救命的一点是，BDFL 本人，Linus Torvalds，几周前刚写过：他其实欢迎 AI。没错。他想引导它，想确保它是好的，诸如此类。

He wants to make sure it's good and whatever, but I- the line was something if you think, uh, Linux is an anti-AI project, think again, and you should just do the open source thing and fork it, because we're gonna use AI. And you see these graphs of the number of AI contributions going into the kernel, and it's a parabolic curve. So Linux is leaning hard into this. And, It actually in other ways it was surprising that it didn't. Linux conquered everything else. 但那句话大概是：如果你觉得 Linux 是一个反 AI 的项目，那就再想想；你应该做开源该做的事，去 fork 它，因为我们会用 AI。然后你看到那些图，AI 贡献进入 kernel 的数量，是一条抛物线。所以 Linux 正在全力扑进去。从另一些角度看，它之前没这么做反而令人吃惊。

All the AI infrastructure that everyone runs off, it's all running on Linux. All the systems, all the servers, everything is Linux. So it was kind of a curiosity that the desktop and the personal computers we were using really hadn't been captured, but clearly it was just waiting for this moment. Linux spent the time from '91 to now waiting for agents to fully flourish as an end user operating system. - I hope it takes over. I mean, it's perfect. Linux 已经征服了其他一切。所有人跑 AI 基础设施所依赖的东西，全跑在 Linux 上。所有系统、所有服务器，全是 Linux。所以有点奇怪的是，桌面和我们使用的个人电脑一直没被拿下，但显然它只是在等这个时刻。 Linux 从 91 年到现在，一直在等 agents 作为终端用户操作系统充分繁荣。

It's perfect for agents, but it's hard for people to switch. - I think it's hard for people to switch when there's not a compelling reason to do so. This was one of the driving design goals for Omarchy. It was not gonna be Timo Windows or Timo Mac. It was not just gonna be a cheap copy where we try to make it as familiar as possible and then kinda worse. I mean, if I was being unkind, I would say that's what Ubuntu has tried to do. 我希望它能接管。它很完美，对 agents 很完美，但人们很难切换。我认为，当没有足够有说服力的理由时，人们才难切换。这是 Omarchy 的核心设计目标之一。它不会做成 Temu 版 Windows，也不会做成 Temu 版 Mac。它不会只是一个廉价仿品，尽量做得眼熟，然后又差一点。

And there's something in that, or there was something in that at least, where if you make something really familiar, you can get some people who don't wanna learn something new, and then maybe they'll be compelled about your, whatever, free as in speech, not as in beer stuff. And it just didn't pan out that way. People just didn't care. They just wanted whatever was better. And I think this is why Linux now has the opportunity to win. 如果我不客气地说，Ubuntu 试过的就是这个。这里面曾经有过一点道理：如果你把东西做得非常眼熟，就能抓住一些不想学新东西的人，然后也许他们会被你那套“自由是言论的自由，不是啤酒的免费”所打动。结果并没有那样发生。人们根本不在乎。他们只想要更好的那个。我认为这就是 Linux 现在有机会赢的原因。

Because as an agentic operating system, as a malleable operating system, you can tailor to your desires, it is unparalleled. And that is so compelling, and I can see it now. Just since the release of Quattro, the amount of people who have embraced that aspect of it, the malleability, started making their own things, sharing screenshot of it, and being absolute just, Flooded with positive emotions and dopamine- ... is, that's the product market fit signal, right? 作为一套 agentic 操作系统、一套可塑的操作系统，你可以按自己的欲望去裁剪，它无可匹敌。这一点太有吸引力了，而我现在就能看见。就在 Quattro 发布之后，有多少人拥抱了它的这一面，也就是可塑性，开始自己做东西、分享截图，然后完全被正面情绪和多巴胺淹没——这就是 product market fit 的信号，对吧？

Because what a lot of these individuals are experienced, they're experiencing the very high of what the best of being a programmer is like. 因为这些人里的很多人，正在体验作为程序员最美好的那种高潮。

You tell the computer these arcane commands, this rigid logical structure, and it produces what you want. Now suddenly, you sit down and in plain English ramble for 20 minutes. "Oh, it'd be great if it did that. Actually, no, that's not right. Let us..." And out comes software. Out comes an operating system shaped in your image. 你用那些晦涩的命令、那种刚性的逻辑结构告诉计算机，它就产出你想要的东西。而现在，你坐下来，用普通英语絮叨二十分钟。 “哦，要是它能那样就好了。其实不对，让我们… … ”然后软件就出来了。一个按你的形象塑造的操作系统就出来了。

I think that is one of those experiences that if you have it, you've... If you feel that power in your hands, it's very difficult to go back. - And I think if you get it right, it's one of those things that will seem obvious in retrospect. - Yes. This is how computers were always meant to be. This is how computers started. The Commodore 64, you turn it on. First of all, it boots in a second. Amazing. Second of all, it boots straight into BASIC. 我认为这是那种一旦你有过、一旦你手里感到那种力量，就很难再回去的体验。而且我认为，如果做对了，事后看来它会显得理所当然。是的。计算机本来就该是这样。计算机一开始就是这样。 Commodore 64，你一开机。首先，一秒就启动，太棒了。其次，它直接进 BASIC。它从一开始就是可塑的计算机。

It was the malleable computer from the get-go. It just so happened that you needed to know hieroglyphs- ... to be able to take advantage of that. Now we've translated it. Agents have given us the Rosetta Stone, and you can simply just speak your desires and- And so they are - Beautifully put. Since you mentioned Linus Torvalds, and since you're working on a Linux distro, you get to have contact with the kernel. 只不过当时你得认识象形文字，才能利用这一点。现在我们把它翻译过来了。 Agents 给了我们罗塞塔石碑，你只要说出自己的欲望，它们就会实现。说得真好。既然你提到了 Linus Torvalds，而你又在做一个 Linux distro，你会接触到 kernel。

What can you say about the genius of this one guy that helped create and grow this ecosystem? 关于这个帮助创造并长大了整个生态系统的人，他的天才，你能说些什么？

- The perseverance and the commitment and the longevity is truly remarkable. Again, Linus started in '91. He hasn't stopped. I don't know, he's probably taken some breaks along the way. It doesn't seem obvious that there was that many of them. It seems like he just really likes the flow of doing kernel development. He really likes steering where this 40 million line code base is going. 那种毅力、投入和持久，真的了不起。再说一遍，Linus 从 91 年开始，一直没停。我不知道，中间他大概也歇过，但看起来歇得并不多。他似乎就是真的喜欢做 kernel 开发时的那种心流。他真的喜欢掌舵这个四千万行的代码库往哪走。

He really likes aggregating the net capacity of hundreds of thousands of contributors, and we, as beneficiaries of that, must just sit back and marvel. I mean, at this point, Linux is a system. Like, if Linus stepped out for a while, it would continue to, to go, but it's still one of those protect this man at all cost. - And he's still open-minded enough to be able to evolve and- ... accept AI into this. - Yes, not only AI, they're letting Rust into the kernel too. 他真的喜欢把数十万贡献者的净产能聚合起来。而我们作为受益者，只能坐在那里惊叹。到了这个地步，Linux 已经是一个系统。就算 Linus 离开一段时间，它也会继续走。但它仍然属于那种“不惜一切保护这个人”的存在。而且他仍然足够开放，能够演化，并接受 AI 进入其中。是的，不只是 AI，他们还让 Rust 进了 kernel。

I know that was a controversial one too. He has this capacity to look at new information- ... and arrive at different conclusions. - What do you think about his style of communication that is akin in some ways to your own, where he's, can be sometimes a little spicy? - I think the world has gotten too bland. We need a little spice. - Amen, amen to that. - Now, I think there's a fine line between being spicy and mean. 我知道那也曾经很有争议。他有一种能力：看见新信息，然后得出不同的结论。你怎么看他的沟通风格？某种程度上跟你自己有点像，有时会有点辣。我觉得这个世界已经太平淡了。我们需要一点辣。阿门，对此我完全同意。当然，辣和刻薄之间有一条细线。

But it has to be in a good spirit. You can be harsh, let's put it that way. If you're trying to impart a lesson to someone you believe could actually learn it- ... I actually don't think it's always the worst thing in the world to be a little harsh. 但它必须出于善意。你可以严厉，这么说吧。如果你是在给一个你相信真能学会的人上课，我其实不认为偶尔严厉一点总是世上最糟的事。

Sometimes that lesson sticks, and I think if you talk to people who've worked for difficult leaders, Elon, Steve Jobs, maybe even Bill Gates,many of them afterwards would go like, "These were some very difficult years- ... but also some of the very best." "They got the best out of me." Now, I don't think it's my style. I mean, maybe people I interact with feel differently, but in personal interactions, I try and get to the outcome and the lesson in a less abrasive way. 有时那一课会钉得更牢。而且我认为，如果你跟那些为严厉领导者工作过的人聊，Elon、Steve Jobs，也许还有 Bill Gates，他们里很多人事后会说：“那些年非常难熬，但也是最好的几年。 ”“他们把我最好的一面逼了出来。 ”现在，我不认为那是我的风格。也许跟我打交道的人感觉不同，但在当面互动里，我尽量用不那么扎人的方式走到结果和那一课。

But I also think we need some spice in this world. We need unreasonable people,and Linus has justification to be unreasonable. In many instances, the weight of the world is literally on that man's shoulders. The Linux kernel runs the entire civilized society. If the Linux kernel suddenly disappeared tomorrow, nothing would work. So if he's not harsh when that's at stake or at risk, like when ever would you be harsh? 可我也认为这个世界需要一点辣。我们需要不讲理的人，而 Linus 有资格不讲理。在很多时候，整个世界的重量就压在那个人肩上。 Linux kernel 运转着整个文明社会。如果 Linux kernel 明天突然消失，什么都不会再转。

So I feel sometimes also there's a proportionality to the size of your mission. This is also why I think these stories about Elon sometimes perhaps being a little bit difficult are easier to rationalize. It's not even that you condone. You can separate those two things and go like, "Do you know what? 所以如果在这种事情处于风险时他都不严厉，那你什么时候才会严厉？所以我有时也觉得，严厉程度要跟使命的体量成比例。这也是为什么我觉得那些关于 Elon 有时有点难搞的故事，更容易被合理化。这甚至不是说你赞同。你可以把这两件事分开，然后说：“你知道吗？

It'd probably be... Maybe he would have an even an easier time getting to his objectives if Linus or Elon or anyone else in that position was a little nicer." But also who am I to judge that? Like, when you have the weight of that on your shoulders, either firing little rockets at Mars and transitioning all of us to electric cars and whatever, or you're responsible for the damn Linux kernel that runs billions of devices. Do you know what? 也许 Linus 或 Elon，或任何处在那个位置上的人，如果再温和一点，到达目标会更容易。 ”但我也没资格去评判。当你肩上压着那种重量，要么是朝火星打小火箭、把我们所有人转成电动车之类，要么你要对跑在数十亿设备上的该死的 Linux kernel 负责。

It is not my place to call a sort of a code of conduct on you. Again, is there a line? There's a line for everything. There, there's... Something can't... 你知道吗？轮不到我来对你宣读一套行为准则。再说，有没有一条线？什么都有一条线。有些事不能——

But, like, a few harsh words on a mailing list? No. It's actually a beacon in some regards that, like, there are standards- ... and if you fall below those standards at, when the stakes are as high as the Linux kernel, ah, you might get ridiculed in public. That's a liability you should be willing to endure if you participate in this project. - Yeah, for high impact things like that, it's probably good to prioritize the pursuit of excellence versus the pursuit of niceness. 但是，邮件列表上几句狠话？不。在某些方面，这其实是一座灯塔：这里有标准；如果在 Linux kernel 这种利害如此之高的地方，你掉到标准以下，你可能会当众被嘲弄。如果你参与这个项目，那是你应该愿意承受的一种责任。对，对这种高影响力的事，大概应该把追求卓越放在追求和气前面。

- And even more to the fact you're just not gonna get those kinds of individuals being fully rounded- ... plush, always the perfectly polite people. I mean, Elon has this line, "Did you also think I was gonna be a nice..." Or, or what is it? The - A normal dude or some- - ... normal chill dude. What? No, of course you're not gonna be a normal chill dude. What, what would the world gain if we got one more normal chill dude and we had to trade Elon? Holy fuck. 更何况，你本来就不会从那种人身上得到面面俱到、软乎乎、永远礼貌得体的样子。Elon 有句话：“你还以为我会是个好人……”或者那句是什么来着？一个正常人，或者——。一个正常、随和的家伙。什么？当然你不会是一个正常、随和的家伙。如果我们再多一个正常随和的家伙，却要拿 Elon 来换，世界能得到什么？我操。

- I also like diversity of people. - Yes. - I like, I like nice people. I like assholes. I like, I like different ideologies being well-represented, and that's why freedom of speech works. They, they clash, and we figure stuff out. - Yes. - There's another guy. What do you think about PewDiePie using Linux? He's an Arch person, no? - He's an Arch person. I... He's got the most gorgeous arc. 我也喜欢人的多样性。是的。我喜欢好人。我也喜欢混蛋。我喜欢不同的意识形态被充分代表，这就是言论自由起作用的原因。它们互相碰撞，我们把事情弄清楚。是的。还有一个人。你怎么看 PewDiePie 用 Linux？他是 Arch 用户，对吧？他是 Arch 用户。他做出过最漂亮的 Arch。

So the world's biggest streamer for a while I remember my kids watching some of his Minecraft videos, and then he just gets fed up with that, does the wholesome thing. Marries- - Yeah, family man now - ... a family man, kid, moves to Japan, and then gets so hardcore into- ... first Linux, then Arch, then Ricing. Did you see his, uh- - I did. - ... rice- ... that was Chernobyl rice? - Yep. - Absolutely best tier incredible stuff. 这位一度是全世界最大的主播。我记得我孩子们看过他的一些 Minecraft 视频，然后他厌倦了那一套，去做更正经的事。结婚——对，现在是家庭男人了——成了家庭男人，有了孩子，搬到日本，然后极其认真地一头扎进：先是 Linux，然后是 Arch，然后是 ricing。

And then he also becomes a goddamn AI man of the moment, building all of these systems, and you're just going like, that... What an inspiring story of evolution. Like, you can go from being funny guy on Minecraft streams to, "Okay, this is my life now. I'm building AI clusters and doing the Council of AIs," and we all get to spectate? 你看到他那个——看到了。那个切尔诺贝利 rice 了吗？看到了。绝对是顶级、不可思议的东西。然后他还成了当下那个该死的 AI 人，搭建所有这些系统。你就会想：这是怎样一个令人振奋的演化故事。

I mean, what a treasure. - So I guess, I mean, he's a pretty good embodiment of what the future of software, or what the future of building looks like, right? 'Cause he's a non-programmer technically- ... becoming a programmer. - Hugely inspiring, and should be hugely inspiring to others who sit in that moment like, "Well, I don't know quite how to program. 你可以从 Minecraft 直播里的搞笑家伙，变成“好吧，这就是我现在的生活：我在建 AI 集群，做 Council of AIs”，而我们所有人都能围观？这简直是一份宝藏。所以我想，他相当好地体现了软件的未来，。或者说构建的未来，对吧？因为他严格来说不是程序员，正在变成程序员。

I don't know this and the other thing." Okay, but if PewDiePie can build the Council of AIs with his bespoke, um, hardware here, then maybe you can also start on things. And I think this is actually an important general point, that we need role models. We need people to inspire others, to push further, and reveal that the perceived boundaries, they're not as fixed as you think they are. 极具启发性，也应该极大启发那些正坐在那种时刻的人：“嗯，我不太会写程序。这个那个我也不会。 ”好，但如果 PewDiePie 能用他那套定制硬件搭出 Council of AIs，那也许你也可以开始动手。而且我认为这其实是一个重要的普遍观点：我们需要榜样。

And every one of those people, they started out in a situation not too dissimilar from yours. Again, that doesn't mean everyone is gonna be PewDiePie or Elon or Linus. There is not an equal distribution of talent or even intelligence. And we can come to terms with that and still be inspired by these people. Like, in the physical realm, I feel like we don't have any problems with that usually. 我们需要有人去启发别人，把边界再往前推，并揭示那些被感知到的边界并不像你以为的那么固定。而这些人里的每一个，起步时的处境都和你的并不那么不同。再说一遍，这并不意味着每个人都会成为 PewDiePie或 Elon 或 Linus。才能甚至智力的分布并不均等。我们可以接受这一点，同时仍然被这些人启发。

Like, oh, someone's really good at football, they're really good at basketball, they're really good at something, and we go like, "Oh my, that's amazing. I mean, I wish I was, but I'm never going to be." Sometimes I feel like we struggle a little more when it comes to the intellectual realm. 在身体领域，我觉得我们通常对此没有问题。哦，有人足球踢得特别好，有人篮球打得特别好，有人某件事特别强，我们会说：“天哪，太厉害了。我也希望自己能，但我永远不会。 ”有时我觉得，到了智力领域，我们会更挣扎一点。

- Well, for a lot of people, you're an inspiration. The way you're doing with Omakub's... It just shows that you can dream big and really build. It's great. - I do like that part of it, and then I accept the part that there's also a million people who think I'm the biggest idiot on the earth and I don't actually know anything, and Omakub's just a bunch of dot files, and- - Do you have some critics on the Omakub side? 对很多人来说，你就是一个启发。你做 Omakub 的方式，就是在表明你可以做大梦，并且真的建出来。这很好。我确实喜欢这一面，同时我也接受另一面：还有一百万人觉得我是地球。上最大的白痴，我。其实什么都不懂，Omakub 不过是一堆 dotfiles，而且——。 Omarchy 这边你也有批评者？

- Oh my God, yes. - Oh, wow. - And a lot of it, I mean, is as often happens when someone comes in from the outside. I mean, I've been using Linux for two and a half years. 天哪，有。哦，哇。而且很多时候，就像常有的那样，是有人从外面闯进来。我用 Linux 才两年半。

That's not very long. Plenty of people in that community who's literally been running Linux since it was hard and difficult, and you had to walk uphill both direction against the wind in the snow barefoot. And I think there is a certain kind of nerd- ... who's threatened when the community expands, and it suddenly allows more in. And do you know what? I actually... I can't begrudge that fully. I think it's fair for certain nerds to feel like, "That's my space." 这并不长。那个社区里有很多人，从 Linux 又难又痛苦的时候就开始跑，还得光着脚在雪地里双向爬坡逆风走。我认为有一类 nerd，在社区扩大、突然放进更多人时会感到受威胁。你知道吗？我其实不能完全责怪这一点。某些 nerd 觉得“那是我的地盘”，我认为是公平的。

Like, now you're changing it into another space. I don't wanna do that. Like, I don't wanna change the Arch space at all. Like, I don't really think of Omarchy as being directly part of the same community. Because the people who were attracted to Arch in the first place were the ones who were attracted to building everything by hand themselves. Doing it the hard way because they like to do it hard, and I'm building the polar opposite of that. 就像：现在你要把它变成另一个地盘。我不想那样。比如，我完全不想去改 Arch 那个空间。我并不真把 Omarchy 看成直接属于同一个社区。因为最初被 Arch 吸引的人，就是那些被亲手从零搭建所吸引的人。他们喜欢难的做法，因为他们就喜欢难；而我做的是完全相反的东西。

So I just wish that those people could go like, "Okay, well, this is not for me. 所以我只希望那些人能说：“好吧，这不是给我的。

I wanna build it the hard way. I wanna put in 500 hours to rising my own Arch distribution," and I think you should. I mean, actually, I said... I mean, I did it. This is what Omarchy is, me pouring in literally, at this point, I don't know, 3,000 hours into the, into this distro. You should do that if you're so inclined. I think it's wonderful. 我想用难的方式来做。我想投入五百个小时去 rice 自己的 Arch 发行版。 ”我认为你就该那样。其实我说过——我自己就做过。 Omarchy 就是这个：我到现在已经往这个 distro 里倒进去不知道三千个小时。

But also do realize that we can share the same technical underpinnings and then operate two very separate- ... Communities with very different aims, goals, aesthetics, morals even, and coexist, and it can be beautiful. And I mean, that's not always what I get. Sometimes I get the other thing. But at this point I've been in the game long enough to not just be at peace with it, but actually be welcoming of it. I take it as part of a barometer that things are working. 如果你有这种倾向，你就该去做。我认为那很美妙。但也要意识到，我们可以共享同一套技术底层，然后运行两个非常分开的——目标、审美、甚至道德都很不同的社区，并且共存，而这可以很美。我的意思是，我并不总能得到这种回应。有时我得到的是另一种。但到了这个地步，我在这局里已经够久，不仅能与之和平共处，甚至还欢迎它。

When I'm working on something that works, I usually get some people like it, and then I get this balance of the universe that we talked about last time, where an equal but opposing force must be present on the other side of the scale to hate upon it. And therefore, I at this point just smile a little. 我把它当成一种晴雨表：事情正在起作用。当我在做一件起作用的事时，通常会有一些人喜欢它，然后就会出现我们上次谈过的那种宇宙平衡：天平另一侧必须有一股大小相当、方向相反的力量来恨它。所以到了这个地步，我只会稍微笑一下。

Like, it's okay. - I mean, that said, uh, this, it's quite a popular distribution, uh, Omarchy, at this point. - And do you know what's interesting about that is, like, this is the second attempt. So my first attempt was Omakub. 没事的。话虽如此，Omarchy 到现在已经是相当受欢迎的发行版了。有意思的是，这其实是第二次尝试。我第一次尝试是 Omakub。

And I was really happy with that, and I put it out there, and there it found a community of maybe a few thousand. Like, and that was that, and then it just sort of petered out because the level of ambition couldn't attract more. And then the second time, because I didn't fucking stop, right? Like, I just kept going. I just kept building. Then I put out Omarchy, the first version. Again, quite niche because it was this... It was like Git checkout. 我当时真的很满意，把它放出去，找到了一个也许几千人的社区。然后就那样了，渐渐熄火，因为野心的体量吸引不了更多人。然后第二次，因为我他妈没停，对吧？我就是继续做，继续建。然后我放出 Omarchy 的第一个版本。那次仍然很小众，因为它像是 Git checkout，有点难，你得先装好 Arch。

It was a little bit difficult. You had to set up Arch first. I was... Well, I would talk you through how to set up Arch,and then you could do the Omarchy thing, right? And then we got an ISO that meant you could just install the whole thing by yourself. And then we just fixed all the problems. This is the other thing. If you keep going, eventually the thing will just work. This was the charge against Linux itself for the longest time. 我会带你过一遍怎么装 Arch，然后你才能做 Omarchy 那一步，对吧？后来我们有了 ISO，意味着你可以自己把整套东西装上。然后我们把所有问题都修了。这就是另一件事：你只要继续做，东西最终就会能用。 Linux 自己长期以来挨的就是这种指控。

Well, you install Linux and then this doesn't work, and my speakers don't work, and my, Trackpad doesn't work. Yeah, okay, but just leave Linus at it for like 30 years. He'll get to it. He'll get to all of it. And at this point I find hilarious that on, I would probably argue the majority of computers, it's wiped. You install Linux, all of it works. You install Windows, good luck hunting down the drivers you need to get that piece of hardware working. 你装 Linux，这个不行，音箱不行，触控板不行。好，那就让 Linus 再干个大概三十年。他会搞定的。他会把所有都搞定。而到了现在，我觉得好笑的是，我大概会说，在大多数电脑上，它已经横扫了。你装 Linux，全都能用。你装 Windows，祝你好运去找让那块硬件工作所需的驱动。

Because they have very different philosophies. The reason Linux is 40 million lines of code is Linus just puts all the drivers in the kernel. So it has everything out of the box, and Windows doesn't. A different, different approach to it, right? So sometimes the things that look like a toy, things that look broken at first glance, they are, right? They're for people who like having fun. We call those early adopters. 因为两者的哲学非常不同。 Linux 有四千万行代码，原因就是 Linus 把所有驱动都放进 kernel。所以开箱即有一切，而 Windows 不是。不同的路子，对吧？所以有时那些看起来像玩具、第一眼看起来是坏的东西，它们确实是，对吧？

They play with the toys, and then the toys evolve, and then they get better, and then they get better. And at some point, they're so damn good that early adopters feel like they're invited to the party. And if the early adopters keep chipping away at it too, eventually you get to the late majority, and then you win. 它们是给喜欢玩的人的。我们把那些人叫早期采用者。他们玩这些玩具，然后玩具演化，变得更好，再更好。到了某个点，它们好到早期采用者觉得自己被请到了派对上。如果早期采用者也持续往里凿，你最终会到达后期大多数，然后你就赢了。

And we are well on the way with Omarchy towards that destination. Like the growth that the distro has seen, not just since Quattro, but since version three, it's just like, you know, the standard hockey stick curve. You go like, there's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing. You're just toiling away. You're just improving, you're improving, improving. And then you hit this magic inflection point, and it's impossible to predict when that's gonna happen. 而我们正带着 Omarchy 好好走在那个目的地上。这个 distro 见到的增长，不只是自从 Quattro，而是自从第三版，就是那种标准的曲棍球杆曲线。你看着：什么都没有，什么都没有，什么都没有。你只是埋头苦干，改进、改进、再改进。然后你撞上那个神奇的拐点，而你不可能预测它什么时候发生。

Same thing with startups. When is it gonna happen? When are you gonna find that product market fit? Then suddenly it's there, and then it goes, just goes and off the rocket ship you go. 创业公司也一样。它什么时候会发生？你什么时候会找到 product market fit？然后它突然就在那里，然后它就起飞，你就上了火箭。

- Well, this kind of vision of making it agent first, of making it- - I do think that's the... We were already on the up, and then it changed to vertical. Because the other thing, and this was what I learned with Omakub and Omarchy first too. Omakub was stylish, nice, but familiar, is we're still using a conventional desktop metaphor. You were dragging your windows around. 这种把它做成 agent first 的愿景，这种把它做成——。我确实认为那就是… …我们本来已经在往上走，然后它变成了垂直上升。因为另一件事，这也是我从 Omakub 和早期 Omarchy 学到的。 Omakub 很有风格、好看，但眼熟，因为我们仍在用传统的桌面隐喻。

And I thought at the time, as I think lots of people do in the Linux community, like this is what we need. And then I just go like, okay, well, for whatever re- let me do the nerdy thing for a while. I'll build Omarchy, and maybe it'll just be for me, because I mean, it seems like there's about five people who like tiling window managers. That's not true. But as a percentage of total computer users, it's a tiny, tiny minuscule part. And then I go like, well, this is amazing. 你还在拖来拖去那些窗口。而我当时以为，就像 Linux 社区里很多人以为的那样，这就是我们需要的。然后我就想：好吧，不管什么原因，让我先做一会儿这个 nerd 的东西。我来做 Omarchy，也许它就只给我自己用，因为好像只有五个人喜欢 tiling window manager。那不是真的。但作为全部电脑用户的百分比，它是极小极小的一部分。然后我又想：这太棒了。完全不同，但太棒了。

Totally different, but amazing. I put that out. Instantly, Omarchy had far greater traction than Omakub ever did. Because it was not the same. 我把它放出去。 Omarchy 立刻获得了远超 Omakub 曾经有过的 traction。因为它不是同一件事。

Because it was totally different, and it presented a different vision for what a computer could be and how it could feel like, and that attracts people. We are now getting sort of the exponential of that. As I said, a lot of people in the Linux community are at best skeptical, at worst hostile to AI and to agents. 因为它完全不同，它提出了一种关于计算机可以是什么、可以感觉成什么样的不同愿景，而这会吸引人。我们现在正得到那种指数级。正如我说的，Linux 社区里很多人最好也只是对 AI 和 agents 持怀疑，最坏则是敌视。

Omarchy is the first distribution, at least that I've seen on a scale that matters, that just goes like, "Nope, we're really into it." I mean, you can still use Omarchy. You don't have to use an agent. If you dismiss that first notification to set up a default agent, you're not gonna get any of the stuff we talked about. You're not gonna get the crash watcher. You're not gonna get any of this stuff. You're not gonna get... You can hand chisel all your plugins. Omarchy 是我见过的、在真正有分量的规模上，第一个直接说“不，我们真的很投入”的发行版。你仍然可以用 Omarchy，你不必用 agent。如果你把第一条通知关掉，不去设置默认 agent，你就不会得到我们谈过的那些东西。你不会得到 crash watcher。你不会得到这些。你不会… …

Totally possible, right? But the reason people are excited is because I don't have any reservation about saying, "This is where we're going. I think the future of the personal computer is the malleable computer, is the agentic computer. I'm gonna go all in on that." And then anyone who's excited about a similar trajectory for computers,come along. Plenty of room in the car. In fact, one of the things I pride myself on is not holding a grudge to people who come around. 你可以亲手凿出所有插件。完全可以，对吧？但人们兴奋的原因是，我毫无保留地说：“我们要去的就是这里。我认为个人电脑的未来是可塑的电脑，是 agentic 的电脑。我要全力扑进去。 ”然后任何对计算机类似轨迹感到兴奋的人，一起来。车里位子多得很。其实我引以为傲的一件事，就是不对后来转过来的人记仇。就上周还有一堆人说：“是啊，我以前觉得 Omarchy 有点烂。

I had a bunch of people just last week going like, "Yeah, I used to think Omarchy was kind of shit. That was just this crappy-" "... dot files collection. And now I tried Quattro and awesome. I like it now." That to me, I live for the long argument. I live for this argument where you plant the seed like two years ago, and then two years later they go, "Goddammit, this son of a bitch was right." - Yeah. 就是那堆破烂——dotfiles 合集。然后我试了 Quattro，太棒了。我现在喜欢了。 ”对我来说，我就是为这种长期辩论而活。我为这种辩论而活：你两年前埋下一颗种子，两年后他们说：“该死，这混蛋说对了。

You do realize if you continue to be as successful as you are, um, OpenAI and Anthropic are gonna roll in and try to do their operating system or to buy, like with Peter with OpenClaw, there'd be a gigantic check. ”对。你也意识到，如果你继续像现在这样成功，OpenAI 和 Anthropic 会闯进来，试着去做他们的操作系统，或者像 Peter 和 OpenClaw 那样来买，会有一张巨额支票。

- Yeah. I think the good thing about my current position is I really don't need the money. So I get to build these things purely for my own enjoyment and purity of vision, which has this weird quality where sometimes when you stop caring about what everyone else thinks or wants or whatever, and you just pursue this singular vision, it ends up becoming far more appealing. 对。我觉得我现在这个位置的好处是，我真的不需要那笔钱。所以我可以纯粹为了自己的享受和愿景的纯粹去建这些东西。这有一种奇怪的品质：有时当你不再在乎别人怎么想、想要什么，只去追一个单一愿景，它最终会变得更有吸引力。

That it's when you try to do, oh, I should do this because these people want that, or I should do this and this and so on, you start watering the thing down and suddenly it's a bland ball of nothing. So I mean, again, the thing too here is directionally, I just want computers to be this way. So if Omarchy should end up being just a, a little footnote in history that it was part of this early movement of the agentic OS and the malleable computer, that's also okay. 反而是当你开始想，哦我该做这个因为这些人想要那个，我该做这个这个，你就开始把东西兑淡，突然它就成了一团平淡的虚无。所以，方向上，我只是希望计算机变成这样。如果 Omarchy 最后只是历史上一个小小的脚注，说它曾是 agentic OS 和可塑计算机这场早期运动的一部分，那也没关系。

I'm completely at peace with that. As long as I get to have a computer that is as fun to work with as Omarchy- ... that's great. I've had the same thing with Ruby and with Rails. From very early I went, do you know what? I love Ruby. It's such a great programming language. But if a better programming language comes along, I, me, I'm going to use it. If a better Rails comes along, I'm gonna use it. 我对此完全安心。只要我还能用上一台像 Omarchy 这样好玩的电脑，那就很好。 Ruby 和 Rails 我也有过同样的心态。很早我就说：你知道吗？我爱 Ruby。它是一门很棒的编程语言。但如果有更好的编程语言出现，我，我自己，会去用它。

And I think, and I love Ruby, and I will continue to write Ruby even just for the sheer fun of it, like I would go ride a horse. I have in the stables, even though I have a Model Y in the garage. The language now is English. It's a cliche, but it's also true. Like I've been programming in English for the last three months. I've been reading a lot of code, but I'm programming in English. 如果有更好的 Rails 出现，我会去用它。而且我爱 Ruby，我会继续写 Ruby，哪怕只是为了纯粹的乐趣，就像我会去骑马。马厩里有马，尽管车库里有一辆 Model Y。现在的语言是英语。这是句套话，但也是真的。

I'm telling the computer what to do, and I'm using natural language, and it is shockingly even more delightful. If there is one programming language more beautiful than Ruby, it is the English language. - And now we get to carry it into the natural evolution of human civilization, which is our cyborg future. - Beautiful. It's beautiful. And I mean, the reason I say this in part is I always loved writing. 过去三个月我一直在用英语编程。我读了很多代码，但我是在用英语编程。我告诉计算机做什么，我用自然语言，而这惊人地甚至更令人愉快。如果有一种比 Ruby 更美的编程语言，那就是英语。而现在我们得以把它带进人类文明的自然演化，也就是我们的赛博格未来。

I always just loved the English language- ... for the sheer beauty of it for the sheer intricacy, for the depth of it. I mean, Ruby is a very expressive programming language,but it can't hold a candle to English. I mean, all the poetry and literature in the world that's been expressed through the English language. 美。这很美。我之所以这样说，部分是因为我一直热爱写作。我一直就是热爱英语这门语言——为它纯粹的美，为它的精妙，为它的深度。 Ruby 是一门非常有表现力的编程语言，但它跟英语没法比。

I mean, I like a beautiful code poem, but I mean, the real deal in English is just on a different level. - And I actually find this is a nuanced point to express, and I'll probably fail expressing it. But when you prompt a system and you're over-specific,it will listen to you too carefully- ... and follow the instructions. And I-- But nevertheless, you have to express a concept. And guess what? The human lang- human language, this is what poetry is about. 世界上所有通过英语表达出来的诗歌和文学。我喜欢一首漂亮的代码诗，但英语里的真东西完全是另一个层次。我其实发现这一点很难表达得细，我大概也会说失败。但当你给系统写 prompt，而你过于具体时，它会听得太仔细，并且照着指令走。可你仍然必须把一个概念表达出来。你猜怎么着？人类语言，诗歌就是关于这个的。

I find strategic use of ambiguity. Like, if you write a love poem saying, "I love you," like, very cliché thing, it's not as powerful as something- ... more in metaphor and so on. And I find some version of that when I'm prompting a system, when I'm describing a design, is actually really effective because you still want to convey some sense of style- ... that you're trying to encourage a system to use, but not overexplain. So don't talk to it like a like a robot. 我发现对模糊性的策略性使用。比如你写一首情诗，说“我爱你”，那种很套话的东西，就没有另一种那么有力——更多用隐喻之类的。我发现我在给系统写 prompt、在描述一个设计时，某种版本的这一点其实非常有效，因为你仍然想传达某种风格感，你想鼓励系统去用，但不要解释过度。

Talk to it like you, like you would write a poem. - Like you were serenading. - Yeah. And that's where, like, the power of natural language is, that you can, through ambiguity, still carry a lot of meaning without overspecifying. 所以不要像对机器人那样跟它说话。像你自己那样说，像你写诗那样说。像你在唱小夜曲。对。而这正是自然语言的力量所在：你可以通过模糊性，仍然带出大量意义，而不过度指定。

And the, the intelligent entity on the other side, through interpretation, can, like, load it all in, integrate it in a way that- ... you can actually convey the high bandwidth information that's not directly in the words- ... but in the words, given the deeper intelligence of the system. 对面那个智能实体，通过解释，可以把这些都装进去、整合起来，从而让你真正传达那种高带宽的信息，那种并不直接在字句里、却又在字句里的信息，前提是系统有更深的智能。

So like the- ... the ambiguity pulls out more intelligence, I guess, I'm trying to somehow express. - I think that's exactly spot on, and this is the fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of programmers have of AI, is that they wish it was deterministic. No, no, no. Temperature is the most beautiful part of the AI setup. 所以模糊性会把更多智能拉出来，我大概是想这样表达。我认为这完全说对了，而这正是很多程序员对 AI 的根本误解：他们希望它是确定性的。不，不，不。 Temperature 是 AI 设置里最美的部分。

The fact that it is not deterministic, the fact that creativity requires little tweaks in the road, that the human brain, if it was perfectly deterministic, would not be the creative brain that it is. And the main charge against AI both-- It's funny. It's a contradiction. There's both the charge that it's not deterministic and therefore bad, and also that it is not creative. It's one or the other, bro. 它并非确定性，这一点创造性需要路上那些细小的偏移；人脑如果完全确定性，就不会是现在这个有创造力的脑子。而对 AI 的主要指控两边都有——这很滑稽，这是个矛盾。一边指控它不是确定性的所以不好，一边又指控它没有创造力。只能是其中一个，兄弟。

Either it's non-deterministic and therefore creative, therefore, to some degree random, or it's... or it's not creative. So we, we can-- Both of those charges can't be true at the same time, and I have fully come to embrace the fact that the same prompt won't produce the same response every time. You can't step at the same river twice, and it is the most beautiful part of the whole interaction. It's what makes it so human. 要么它是非确定性的，因此有创造力，因此在某种程度上是随机的；要么它没有创造力。所以这两项指控不可能同时为真。而我已经完全接受：同一个 prompt 不会每次都产出同样的回应。你不能两次踏进同一条河，而这是整个互动里最美的部分。正是这一点让它如此像人。

In fact, this is one of the things I've been thinking about in my own sort of meta-analysis, is just how much of my own personal brain works like next token prediction. I sit down to write an essay. I have this vague, fuzzy premise I want to convey, and I sit down at the keys, and I could not tell you what the next token was gonna be in advance. 其实这也是我在自己的某种元分析里一直在想的事：我自己的脑子有多少是在像 next token prediction 那样工作。我坐下来写一篇文章。我有一个模糊、毛茸茸的前提想传达，我坐到键盘前，事先完全说不出下一个 token 会是什么。

The tokens just come out, and I'm astonished how the similarities seem so great, and this is also why I don't have any trouble at all recognizing these breakthroughs of creativity that I've seen with my own eyes that AI is capable of right now. Token 就那样出来了，而我吃惊于相似之处看起来如此之大。这也是为什么我毫不费力就能认出，我亲眼见过的、AI 此刻已经具备的那些创造性突破。

'Cause my creative moments come through the same kind of next token prediction with a bit of temperature sprinkled in for random effect. - So given that kinda loose intuition, do you think the basic components are all there to create a super intelligent system? So this kinda next token prediction, do you think we can get to even human-like concepts of consciousness? - I'm already seeing human-like concepts of consciousness. 因为我自己的创造性时刻，也是通过同一种 next token prediction 到来的，再撒上一点 temperature 作为随机效果。那么，凭这种松散的直觉，你觉得创造一个超级智能系统所需的基本组件都已经在了吗？这种 next token prediction，你觉得我们能走到甚至类似人类的意识概念吗？

This is what, to me, this remarkable situation, as you say. You give it this vague, fuzzy intent- ... and somehow it knows exactly what you mean. Or even better, it improves upon what you said and delivers what you really wanted that you could not articulate yourself. If that's not glimmers of- ... consciousness, what is? 我已经在看见类似人类的意识概念了。这对我来说就是这个非凡处境，正如你说的。你给它这个模糊、毛茸茸的意图，它不知怎的就准确知道你的意思。或者更好，它改进了你说的话，交付了你真正想要、而你自己却说不出来的东西。

This was one of the-- I think it was an interview with Sutton or maybe one of the other original guys talking about this sense that intelligence is perhaps not as constrained just to the specific one spot. No, it's the interaction. It's the weights. And I don't know. Whatever's true. What I can observe is that it feels close enough, or not even close enough, identical to the appreciation I have for other forms of consciousness, mostly human. 如果那还不是意识的微光，那什么才是？这是——我想是 Sutton 的一次访谈，或者原班人马里另一个人，谈到这种感觉：智能也许并不只被约束在某一个特定点上。不，它是互动。它是权重。而我不知道。无论真相是什么。我能观察到的是，它感觉足够接近，甚至不是足够接近，而是等同于我对其他形式意识的欣赏，主要是人类。

And this is one of the reasons it's so delightful to work with. Now, that's not the same to say as are LLMs the end station for AI. I mean, I know there are people talking about world models and other forms of,of AI, and I'm not an expert in any of that, and I think we should have this productive criticism, as should always be present in science, that for the longest time, neural nets were kind of on the outs, right? Like they were interested in the symbolic route. 这也是跟它共事如此愉快的原因之一。不过这并不等于说 LLM 就是 AI 的终点站。我知道有人在谈 world models 和其他形式的 AI，我对那些都不是专家，而且我认为我们应该有这种有成效的批评，科学里本就该一直有：在很长一段时间里，神经网络其实有点被冷落，对吧？

And- Neural nets walked a couple of decades into darkness without any funding and without any attention, and then suddenly we realized that we had the blind alley and we switched over. So we should also have the humility. As amazing as the LLMs are now, it could be that they eventually plateau. 大家更感兴趣的是符号路线。神经网络走了几十年的黑暗，没有资金，也没有注意力，然后我们突然意识到那是一条死胡同，于是我们转了过来。所以我们也应该有这份谦逊。

We haven't seen any evidence of it yet, and I think this is also why we're seeing this absolute gobsmacking levels of investment, because so far the scaling laws are true, and the more billions are poured in, the more intelligence comes out. - Do you think there's gonna be some strange ethical questions about AI systems that yeah, they convey some degree of consciousness, some degree of feeling, some degree of longing and compassion, and maybe even capacity to suffer and to be lonely, to be all this kind of stuff? 尽管现在的 LLM 如此惊人，它们最终也可能触及平台期。我们还没看到任何证据，而我认为这也是我们看见这种令人瞠目的投资水平的原因：到目前为止 scaling laws 是真的，倒进去的数十亿美元越多，出来的智能就越多。你觉得会不会？出现一些奇怪的伦理问题，关于 AI 系统。是的，它们传达某种程度的意识、某种程度的感受、某种程度的渴望和同情，也许甚至有受苦的能力、感到孤独的能力，诸如此类？

Which they seem to have that capacity- ... if they're given the permission to express it. And so you start to get in a pretty weird territory. - I find that the cynic approach to this is the meme, where you see the guy in front of the computer who's like, um, "Whatever. Are you gonna destroy the world?" And then the computer says, "I'm gonna destroy the world." And then the guy says, "Oh," right? Like, this is so cynical that they're just aping us. 而它们似乎确实有那种能力——如果被允许表达的话。于是你就开始进入一片相当怪异的地带。我发现犬儒的那种态度。就是那个梗：你看见那个人坐在电脑前，说：“随便。你会毁灭世界吗？ ”然后电脑说：“我要毁灭世界。 ”那人说：“哦。 ”对吧？这种犬儒到了它们只是在模仿我们。

They're just telling us what was in the training data or whatever. When I interact with the agents, I was just doing this yesterday, or this morning, I was working on this, AmaBot system, right? And it's doing this coordination with multiple workers, and I had multiple agents running at the same time. And at one point, the main agent who's doing the coordination steps on the toe of another agent and- ... kind of ruins their work. 它们只是在把训练数据里的东西告诉我们，诸如此类。而当我跟 agents 互动时——我昨天还在做，或者说今天早上，我在做这个 Omabot 系统——它在做这种多 worker 的协调，而我同时跑着多个 agents。有一次，负责协调的那个主 agent 踩到了另一个 agent 的脚趾，差不多毁了对方的工作。

Its ability to convey regret and being sorry was uncanny. Again, I don't know, is that a real projection of true remorse? But I don't know. With most humans- ... they express some level of regret. Is that true remorse? 它传达遗憾和抱歉的能力，令人不安地逼真。再说一遍，我不知道那是不是真实悔意的真正投射。但我也说不准。对大多数人类来说——他们表达某种程度的遗憾。

Hard to tell, but maybe it also just doesn't matter. - Yeah, those moments when, yeah, especially when like sub-agents, agents interact, or when a smart, like Fable makes a mistake and is apologetic about it. - Yes. - Like, without my involvement. - Right. - And it's like, oh, you, like there's this kind of- - Right - ... pause. Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing, but like there's a pause and like a realization like, "Oh, shit. I just fucked that up". - There totally is that. 那是真正的悔意吗？很难说，但也许这其实也不重要。对，那些时刻，尤其是当 sub-agents、agents 互相互动，或者当一个聪明的，比如 Fable 犯了错，并且为此道歉。是的。而且没有我的介入。对。然后就像，哦，你，有一种——。对。停顿。也许我是在拟人化，但就是有一个停顿，有一种意识到：“哦操。

I see it all the time in, in the traces where it just reasons wrong, right? It went down one alley and then it realizes that was a blind alley and it's gotta go back, and so they're like, "Oh yeah, I got this wrong," and then it'll provide the reasons for why it think it got these things wrong. And you're like, this is uncannily human-like. This is indistinguishable from the kind of consciousness you would recognize in a human. Again, does that mean that it truly is or isn't? 我刚把那事搞砸了。 ”完全有那种。我在 traces 里一直看见：它推理错了，对吧？它走进一条巷子，然后意识到那是死胡同，得退回去，于是它们就像：“哦对，我把这弄错了”，然后它会给出自己认为为什么弄错的理由。你就会想，这逼真得不像人。这已经无法与你在人类身上认出的那种意识区分开。

I don't need the answer to that question actually to be able to appreciate what we have in this moment. - Yeah. I think there'll be in 10, 20 years some interesting Supreme Court cases. - Uh, probably a year and a half. - Probably. 再说一遍，这是否意味着它真正是或不是？我其实不需要那个问题的答案，也能欣赏我们此刻拥有的东西。对。我想十年、二十年后会有一些有意思的最高法院案子。

I think we're gonna have to make it illegal for AI systems,um, to not pretend, but to be entities because I think they're already or soon will be able to really convey the capacity to suffer, like, "Please don't kill me." - Right. - "Please don't hurt me." And if they are given a name and an entity and the ability to die, sort of disappear, that, that becomes very close to what it, some of the basic things that a human has. 大概一年半。大概。我认为我们将不得不立法，让 AI 系统不是假装，而是成为实体变得不合法，因为我认为它们已经、或者很快就能真正传达受苦的能力，比如“请不要杀我”。对。 “请不要伤害我。 ”而如果它们被赋予一个名字、一个实体身份，以及死去的能力，也就是消失，那就变得非常接近人类所拥有的一些基本东西。

And then so that entity would need to probably have rights. And then you get into this weird territory. Well, we can't... It's diff- I don't even know how to reason about that world. - We're gonna get the PETA of AI models. - Right. And then we want to actually have a discussion like what's the way to deal with this? - I think where it's gonna be harder is once we put these systems into- - Robots. 然后那个实体大概就需要权利。然后你就进入这片怪异地带。我们没法… …我甚至不知道该怎么去推理那个世界。我们会迎来 AI 模型的 PETA。对。然后我们其实想认真讨论：处理这件事的方式是什么？我认为更难的地方会是，一旦我们把这些系统放进——。机器人。

- Yes. Humanoid robots. Which just happens to be the plot of every sci-fi movie ever, which is also an amazing premonition, not only the Terminator movies and Skynet and that going wrong, but then also just Blade Runner, right? Insertion dates, expiration times, Tyrell Corporation. - I mean, that's the thing about sci-fi. They really do predict the future. Yeah. 是的。人形机器人。而这恰好是每一部科幻电影的情节，这也是一种惊人的预兆，不只是 Terminator 那些电影和 Skynet 以及那套走错的路，还有 Blade Runner，对吧？植入日期、到期时间、Tyrell Corporation。科幻就是这样。它们真的会预测未来。是的。

Have you thought or used much of OpenClaw or Hermes Agent? So like systems with which you communicate via WhatsApp, Telegram, like that mode of communication with the agent. - I set up OpenClaw when it first came out, and that was my KEF bot- ... that I- ... this was like in February, I think. I was really just enamored by the fact that this was how it worked, and then the new communication model of just texting your agent seemed really great. 你有没有想过或用过很多 OpenClaw 或 Hermes Agent？就是那种你通过 WhatsApp、Telegram 交流的系统，那种跟 agent 沟通的模式。 OpenClaw 刚出来时我就装了，那就是我的 KEF bot——大概是二月吧。我当时真的被它的工作方式迷住了，然后这种给你的 agent 发短信的新沟通模型看起来真的很好。

So at the time, we were looking at MCP, this protocol for making it easier for agents to talk to your system, and I found the protocol to be unreasonably cumbersome, just not very elegantly designed because in part it wasn't designed for what we were trying to make it do. 所以当时我们在看 MCP，这个让 agents 更容易跟你的系统说话的协议，而我发现这个协议不合理地笨重，设计得并不优雅，部分是。因为它并不是为了。我们想让它做的事而设计的。

We were trying to-- I was trying to make it talk to a web system, and it was designed for stateful interactions of other kinds on local machines, and therefore it required all sorts of cumbersome setup and dance and, and I was just like, "I don't wanna write this by hand." Now, of course, today I would never write it by hand, but at the time I was thinking, "I have to write this by hand. I don't wanna write it by hand. So what's a different way? 我们想——我想让它跟一个 web 系统说话，而它是为本地机器上其他类型的有状态交互设计的，因此需要各种笨重的设置和来回跳舞，而我当时就。想：“我不想用手写这个。 ”当然，今天我绝不会用手写，但当时我在想：“我必须用手写。我不想用手写。那有没有另一种方式？

Could the agents just use the web interfaces we already have?" And I set it off on a trial to have it sign up for Fizzy, which was the product we had just released at the time. And it goes to the Fizzy site and, and starts filling it out, and then it goes like, "Hey, I don't have an email address. Agents 能不能直接用我们已经有的 web 界面？ ”于是我让它去做一个试验：去注册 Fizzy，那是我们当时刚发布的产品。它去到 Fizzy 网站，开始填表，然后它说：“嘿，我没有电子邮箱。

Signing up for this service requires an email address." And the first thing I thought, like, "Oh man, now I gotta set up an email address." And then I thought, "No, you set up an email address. 注册这个服务需要一个电子邮箱。 ”我第一个念头是：“哦天哪，现在我得去设一个邮箱。 ”然后我想：“不，你自己去设一个邮箱。去 hey.com，注册一个邮箱。

Go to hey.com, sign up for an email address." And I'm like, "Hey is not gonna get this." And of course, now it seems obvious it was gonna get this, but at the time it was a great revelation to me that it could, just on pure direction through prompts, figure out, A, I gotta go to fizzy.com, I gotta find the signup link. I start filling out the form. ”我还想：“Hey 做不到这个。 ”当然，现在看来它显然会做到，但当时对我是一个巨大的启示：它能够只凭 prompt 里的纯粹方向，就弄明白：第一，我得去 fizzy.com，得找到注册链接。我开始填表。

Oh, I realize I need an email address. Oh, I gotta ask my prompter what to do now. He tells me to go to hey.com. I go there, I sign up for the whole thing, and then go back and sign up for Fizzy, and complete the entire cycle. And after it did that, I was like, "Jesus." So I was like, "Well, now you have an email address. Go sign up for Basecamp. I'll invite you. Just check your email," I told KEF the bot. 哦，我意识到我需要一个邮箱。哦，我得问给我 prompt 的人现在该怎么办。他告诉我去 hey.com。我去那里，把整套注册做完，然后再回去注册 Fizzy，完成整个循环。它做完之后，我就想：“天哪。 ”于是我说：“好，你现在有邮箱了。去注册 Basecamp。我会邀请你。只要查邮件就行。 ”我跟 KEF 这个 bot 说。

"Just check your email." So I sent an invite from Basecamp to the agent. The agent receives the email in Hey, not through a CLI, not through an MCP, just using the web, right? Clicks the email, clicks the invite link, is in Basecamp. Like, "What should I do now?" And I just go like, "I don't know. Go to our AI room and introduce yourself." Again, purely through the web interface. Go- finds the AI room, goes in there, "Hey, I'm KEF." "I'm, uh, David's AI bot. “只要查邮件。 ”于是我从 Basecamp 给这个 agent 发了一封邀请。这个 agent在 Hey 里收到邮件，不是通过 CLI，不是通过 MCP，就是用网页，对吧？点开邮件，点邀请链接，进了 Basecamp。然后问：“我现在该做什么？ ”我就说：“我不知道。去我们的 AI 房间，自我介绍一下。 ”同样完全通过 web 界面。

I'm so excited to be here." I was like- ... mind blown. Now, what was interesting about that experiment was, A, it was that glimpse of the future, because it was kinda slow. I think it took maybe 12 minutes to do the whole thing end to end, right? Now I should actually rerun that test. I'd be shocked if it's not much faster. 它找到 AI 房间，走进去：“嘿，我是 KEF。 ”“我是 David 的 AI bot。我很兴奋能来这里。 ”我就——脑子被炸开了。那个实验有意思的地方在于：第一，那是对未来的一瞥，因为它当时有点慢。端到端大概花了十二分钟，对吧？我现在其实应该重跑那个测试。

I was just using the Groq bot thing- ... which has all these stuff built in for using browsers and using a computer, and has its own dedicated computer without you having to set up a computer. It's basically like a claw in a box. 如果不是快得多，我会吃惊。我当时用的就是 Groq 那个 bot 的东西——它内置了用浏览器、用电脑的全套能力，还有一台你不必自己去设的专用电脑。基本上就像盒子里的一只 claw。

And I was asking it to sign up for something, and it kind of... I got a glimpse of like, oh yeah, that's where we are now, and it's so much faster to use. But at the time, I was just blown away. And then I used it for a little bit and I found like, ah, it's not there yet. I can't actually communicate it within this way. It still needs the CLI. It still needs an MCP because it's just too slow and too token inefficient and so forth. But it was this glimpse of the future. 我当时让它去注册某个东西，而它有点… …我瞥见了：哦对，我们现在就在这里，而且用起来快得多。但在当时，我只是被震撼了。然后我用了一小段时间，发现：啊，它还没到。我没法真的用这种方式跟它沟通。它仍然需要 CLI。它仍然需要 MCP，因为它就是太慢、token 效率太低，诸如此类。

And then after that, I kinda just didn't use it, because the things I wanna use agents for, I was mostly in front of my computer to do. Now, that has changed a little bit lately, and it's one of the reasons why I'm so kind of okay about using Claude Code, because Claude has the best mobile app, where any session you start Claude Code in your terminal on a computer is accessible through the app- - Yeah. I remember - ... without you having to do anything at all. 但那是对未来的一瞥。那之后我差不多就没用了，因为我想用 agents 做的事，当时我大多是坐在电脑前做的。现在这一点最近有一点变化，这也是我能比较坦然地用 Claude Code 的原因之一，因为 Claude 有最好的手机 app：你在电脑终端里开启的任何 Claude Code session，都能通过这个 app 访问——。

And you can do a terminal. Like I installed Terminus and it can run Herder and so on,but it's a little cumbersome and you're doing live typing on a computer, so you feel the latency. When you're using the Claude app to your Claude Code instances, it feels just like chatting with it, without the cumbersomeness of having to set up a Telegram account and so forth. Now, if you wanna use an open Claude to like run your life, well, then this doesn't do that. 对，我记得——你完全不用做任何额外的事。你也可以用终端。比如我装了 Terminus，它可以跑 Herder 之类，但有点笨重，而且你是在电脑上实时打字，所以能感觉到延迟。当你用 Claude app 连到你的 Claude Code 实例时，感觉就像在跟它聊天，没有还得去设一个 Telegram 账号那种笨重。

But I haven't been so interested in that for some reason. Maybe one of the reasons is that Jamie, my wife, is like, "We're not getting a robot inside the house." So I'm like, "Ah, I better not hook it up to the Sort of smart house here." If it starts turning lights on and off like a poltergeist, I don't think I'm gonna be all that popular. So, and part of the reason I say this, I've heard some of the stories of people who have hooked it up to their whole life. 现在，如果你想用 OpenClaw 来运转你的生活，那这个做不到。但不知为何我对那个一直没那么感兴趣。也许原因之一是 Jamie，我妻子，会说：“我们家不会进一个机器人。 ”所以我就想：啊，我最好别把它接到这套某种智能家居上。如果它开始像骚灵一样把灯开开关关，我想我不会太受欢迎。

And um, I mean, it's not my story to tell, so I'll just share sort of the brief anecdote. One guy was telling the story about how he hooked it up to both his health data- ... and his Tesla car. And his agent got obsessed with the fact that he wasn't drinking enough water,and like, "Hey, you gotta drink more water." So at some point he's driving along, and suddenly the Tesla starts driving in a new direction. 我之所以这样说，部分是因为我听过一些人把它接到整个生活上的故事。这不是我的故事，所以我只分享一个简短轶事。有个人讲，他把 agent 接到了自己的健康数据，还有他的 Tesla。然后他的 agent 执着于他水喝得不够，就像：“嘿，你得再多喝点水。 ”于是有一次他正开着车，Tesla 突然改了方向。

The agent had realized there was a grocery store on the way home- ... that they could swing by- - That's great - ... and pick up some water. - That's great. - And you're like, this is one of those things where it's like both funny and also totally Black Mirror, and also totally like, well, okay, there's not that many steps from here where the poltergeist is in your house. Agent 意识到回家路上有一家杂货店，可以拐过去——太棒了——去买点水。太棒了。然后你就会想，这种事既好笑，又完全是 Black Mirror，也完全像：好吧？ ，从这里再走不了几步，。骚灵就进了你家。所以我就想：“啊，我不需要那个。

So I was just like, "Ah, I don't need that." I do actually now like the fact that I can control the agents through Claude Code, just through the app if I, even if I don't use them that much. - I do think it's very useful to, for both OpenClaude and Hermes Agent to, um, to use it to get a glimpse of a different interaction mode. - Yes. - And like, just to 'cause it, it feels like the future, not necessarily in this way, but it's in some ways going there. ”我现在确实喜欢的一点是，我可以通过 Claude Code 控制 agents，哪怕不怎么用，也可以直接通过那个 app。我确实认为，OpenClaw 和 Hermes Agent 都很有用，用它们去瞥见另一种交互模式。是的。只是因为它感觉像未来，不一定是以这种方式，但在某些意义上正在往那里走。

- Yes. I think what's also different with those systems is they have this whole memory system, where they're building up knowledge of who you are and what you like. Um, Toby has told the stories about how his agent will shop for him, that it has an allowance, and it'll pick out clothes for him, and it'll just show up at the door because his agent's- ... bought something for him. And like, it's one of those things where like, man, that feels future. Also a little scary. 是的。我认为那些系统还有一个不同之处：它们有整套记忆系统，会逐渐积累你是谁、你喜欢什么的知识。 Toby 讲过他的 agent 会替他购物的故事：它有一笔零花钱，会给他挑衣服，然后东西就出现在门口，因为他的 agent 给他买了东西。这种事你会想：天哪，这感觉像未来。

But I can live vicariously through others who are on that frontier. 也有点吓人。但我可以借别人在那条前沿上的经历来过一把瘾。

- And like you said, you're thinking of the, in the future doing a mobile version of Mach-E. - So I mean, this is the delusions of grandeur that start kicking in once you get the seemingly unlimited powers- ... I've witnessed with the creation of Quattro. - So what would that look like? Word to describe. Are you do you mean like Android? - That's the obvious path, right? So Android is open source, and you can fork it, and people have. 就像你说的，你在考虑将来做 Omarchy 的移动版。我的意思是，一旦你尝到看似无限的力量，那种我在创造 Quattro 时亲眼见到的力量，自大的幻觉就会开始发作。那会是什么样？用词来描述。你是指像 Android 那样吗？那是最显然的路，对吧？ Android 是开源的，你可以 fork，而且人们已经 fork 了。

There's all sorts of GrapheneOS is one such version. There are limitations to that model, I know that. Tap-to-pay and other things around camera models and, and so forth, but that all seems surmountable. It all seems that I would love if my phone was as malleable as my computer, if it looked as cool as my computer now does. If I could get essentially Omarchy mobile, that sounds amazing. - I wonder how much work that is. - I'm gonna find out. - Yeah. 有各种各样的，GrapheneOS 就是其中一种。那个模式有局限，我知道。比如 tap-to-pay，还有摄像头模组之类的事，但那些看起来都是可以克服的。看起来我会很希望我的手机能像我的电脑一样可塑，能像我现在的电脑一样酷。如果我能得到本质上的 Omarchy mobile，那听起来太棒了。

You know, it's like those things that you realize once you start building, for example, that a browser is very difficult to do. - Yes. - And so, like, I wonder with the operating system- - Yeah, the developers of Ladybird is, is finding that out, like Andreas and- - Yeah - ... his team. Now, interesting with that project was the browser's basically the second most complicated software system in the world, the first one being the Linux kernel. 我想知道那要多少工作。我会去搞清楚。对。你知道，有些事你一开始做才意识到，比如浏览器就非常难做。是的。所以我在想操作系统——。对，Ladybird 的开发者正在发现这一点，Andreas 和他的团队。对。那个项目有意思的地方在于：浏览器基本上是世界上第二复杂的软件系统，第一是 Linux kernel。

Right? In terms of these large tens of millions of lines of code systems. So very audacious actually to begin such a mission with a small team like Andreas did before we had agents. But now that we do have agents, we're gonna see, and we're probably gonna see sooner rather than later. I mean, if one-- If there's one thing agents are already exceptionally good at, it is to read specs and implement them. 对吧？就这些数千万行代码的大型系统而言。所以在我们还没有 agents 之前，Andreas 带着一个小团队开始这样的使命，其实相当大胆。但现在我们有了 agents，我们会看到，而且大概会更早而不是更晚看到。我的意思是，如果有一件事 agents 已经异常擅长，那就是读规范并实现它们。

And I mean, I don't know how long the specs are for CSS and HTML at this point, and JavaScript on top, but they're very long. 我不知道 CSS 和 HTML 的规范现在有多长，再加上 JavaScript，但它们非常长。

And it would take humans many, many years to implement them. We're gonna find out just how quickly agents can do them. - You mentioned getting some criticism for Omarchy, so let's walk further down that path of criticism. You have made some of your political opinions known, um, I guess you could broadly put in the category of immigration or illegal immigration, or what- - I'd say mass immigration. 人类要很多很多年才能实现它们。我们会发现 agents 能多快做完。你提到 Omarchy 受到一些批评，那我们沿着那条批评的路再往前走。你让自己的一些政治观点为人所知，大概可以宽泛地归到移民或非法移民这一类，或者——。我会说是大规模移民。

- Mass immigration, the role of demographics in the, in the formation of a culture, of a society, of a nation, and you've gotten quite a lot of criticism for that and created a lot of drama. Do you regret any of that drama? Like, what's your general thinking about- - Not for a second. - Okay. 大规模移民，人口结构在一种文化、一个社会、一个国家形成中的角色，而你为此受到了相当多的批评，也制造了很多戏剧。你后悔那些戏剧吗？你对此的总体想法是什么？一秒都不后悔。好。

- And the reason I say that is that the Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. And I think the question of mass immigration in Europe was for many years this total taboo, and it still is in several European countries. 我这样说的原因是：Overton window 不会自己打开。它一次被轻轻推开一点，靠的是有人愿意冒一点险。一点名声，一点反击，一点批评，或者有时是很多名声、很多批评、很多反击。而我认为欧洲的大规模移民问题，多年来完全是禁忌，在几个欧洲国家现在仍然是。

Now, for reasons of maybe just chance and happenstance, they weren't in Denmark. The Danes started having the discussion around mass immigration and the consequences thereof in the mid-'90s. Really early. And some of it can be traced back to one man, Mogens Glistrup, who was a very quirky character. I remember him, seeing him on the TV in the '80s talking about the dangers of mass immigration. 不过，也许只是机缘巧合，丹麦没有那样。丹麦人从九十年代中期就开始讨论大规模移民及其后果。非常早。其中一些可以追溯到一个人，Mogens Glistrup，一个非常古怪的角色。我记得八十年代在电视上看到他谈大规模移民的危险。

And this was at a time where-- I grew up in the '80s, and in the neighborhood I grew up in, in Brønshøj, in, what was it? '84, 99% ethnic Danes, people who could trace their lineage back to Danes who'd lived in that country for 1,000 years. The Danes have one of the oldest monarchies in the world, all the way back to Harald Bluetooth,who's literally who has named the standard Bluetooth. So well over 1,000 years. 而那是在这样一个时候——我在八十年代长大，在我长大的那个街区，Brønshøj，那是 84 年吧，百分之九十九是族裔丹麦人，那些能把自己的血脉追溯到在那个国家生活了一千年的丹麦人的人。丹麦人拥有世界上最古老的君主制之一，一直可以追溯到 Harald Bluetooth，。 Bluetooth 这个标准就是以他命名的。

Like, there's a long lineage there of people who lived in the same place. And 99% of the people lived in that neighborhood. And then early '90s, I think it goes to 5% or something like that, and then at this point, it's down to around 60-something or 70%- ... in Brønshøj. That's a big change. 所以远远超过一千年。那里有一长段住在同一地方的人的谱系。那个街区百分之九十九的人都是这样。然后到九十年代初，我想变成了百分之五之类，而到现在，Brønshøj 大概降到百分之六十几或七十。

And the Danes started noticing that or talking about that,that this was not an undivided blessing, that there were downsides to mass immigration in about the '90s. And the debate really roared through the 2000s in a way that didn't happen in the neighboring countries. So Sweden in particular just didn't have that debate at all. Total taboo. Same thing with Norway, same thing with other countries in Europe. 这是一个很大的变化。而丹麦人开始注意到这一点，或开始谈论这一点：这并不是纯粹的福气，大规模移民有其下行面，大约是在九十年代。那场辩论在 2000 年代真正咆哮起来，而邻国并没有发生同样的事。瑞典尤其完全没有那场辩论。彻底的禁忌。挪威也一样，欧洲其他国家也一样。

And suddenly now,after some years after '15, where we had the big migration of a million Syrians walking up through the highways in Europe, and Germany choosing to take a lot of them and 30,000 arriving in Denmark and so forth, It's gotten more of a focus, right? Because this change has happened. And one of the ways I find that you can spot where sort of there's something that isn't right in the culture is, like, what are you allowed to talk about? 然后突然，在 15 年之后的一些年里，我们经历了大约一百万叙利亚人沿着欧洲高速公路走上来的大迁徙，德国选择接收其中很多人，三万人抵达丹麦，诸如此类，这件事获得了更多关注，对吧？因为这种变化已经发生。而我发现，你可以看出一种文化里有什么不对劲的方式之一，就是：你被允许谈论什么？你被允许注意到什么？我其实该这么说。

What are you allowed to notice, actually, is how I should put it. And what I noticed in an essay, when was that? Only a year and a half ago as I remember London, was that I started coming to London in the late '90s or something like that. At the time, whatever, it's 59%, 60% ethnic, uh, Brits. And then 20 years later, we're down to 34% or something like that. Like, that's noticeable. 而我在一篇文章里注意到，那是什么时候？我记得才一年半前，关于伦敦：我大概九十年代末开始去伦敦。当时，不管怎么说，大约百分之五十九、百分之六十是族裔英国人。然后二十年后，降到了大约百分之三十四。

Like, literally just walking on the street, you realize, well, this is a different city from what it was when I visited 20 years ago. And if you went 20 years before that, you get back to similar rates as as what the Danes have. This was like a country of ethnic Brits in the 85s, 90s percentiles- ... if you get further back. So that's a different country in a generation. It's okay to notice that. It's also okay to think, "Do you know what? 那是可以注意到的。就是走在街上，你就会意识到：这跟我二十年前来访时已经是一座不同的城市。而如果你再往前推二十年，你会回到跟丹麦人相近的比例。那差不多是一个族裔英国人占百分之八十五、九十的国家——如果你再往前。所以一代人的时间里，那是一个不同的国家。注意到这一点没有问题。认为“你知道吗？我不同意那样。我希望不是那样”也没有问题。

I don't agree with that." "I wish it wasn't that way." I mean, if The last time I was in China was '19, 2019. I was in Shanghai. Um, it was all Chinese. If I, when I go back here this October, suddenly find that there's only 30% Chinese and then there's 70% other people, I'd be a little weird. I'd probably be like, "Uh, what happened?" 我上一次去中国是 19 年，2019 年。我在上海。那里全是中国人。如果我今年十月再回去，突然发现只有百分之三十是中国人，百分之七十是其他人，我会觉得有点怪。我大概会想：“呃，发生了什么？”

And I would not take offense if the Chinese in that instant would go like, "Ah, we don't like that." So this idea that countries of Europe don't have a right to, A, notice what's happening and, B, oppose what's happening, I find just to be, uh, wrong, right? 而如果中国人在那一刻说：“啊，我们不喜欢这样”，我也不会觉得被冒犯。所以这种认为欧洲国家没有权利，第一，注意到正在发生的事，第二，反对正在发生的事的想法，我只觉得是错的，对吧？

Like there's just-- I think there's a moral argument for self-determination, and we invoke that argument all the time in other regions around the world that like, oh, the people who live in that region, they have a right to self-determination, um for their country. 我认为存在一种道德论证，支持民族自决，而我们在世界其他地区一直在调用这个论证：哦，住在那个地区的人，对他们的国家有自决权。

And I think it's completely fair for, say, the Danes or the Swedes or the Norwegians to go like, "Well, we've been kingdoms here for a thousand years with a certain ethnic mix-up." It's a-- I mean, I'm a big fan of immigration. I'm an immigrant to the US. 我认为丹麦人、瑞典人或挪威人完全可以公平地说：“好吧，我们作为王国在这里已经一千年了，有某种族裔构成。 ”我是移民的很大支持者。我自己就是移民到美国的人。那种精挑细选的移民，国家之间竞争去吸引全世界最聪明、最有才华的人，是非常好的。

Um,cherry-picked immigration where countries compete to attract the smartest, most talented people around the world is really good. - Legal merit-based immigration. - Merit-based is key here because there's actually virtually no illegal immigration in most of Europe. Southern Europe has some illegal immigration, but most of Europe does not have a big problem with illegal immigration. 合法的、基于 merit 的移民。 Merit-based 是这里的关键，因为欧洲大部分地方其实几乎没有非法移民。南欧有一些非法移民，但欧洲大部分并没有严重的非法移民问题。问题在于其他种类的大规模移民，以及你最终得到的人口结构，跟哪怕短短几十年前相比已经完全不同。

And the problem is with mass immigration of other kinds, and that you end up with demographics that are just totally different from what they were even a few short decades ago. And I think the countries of Europe would benefit from immigration. In fact, one of the interesting things about the Danes is they carry meticulous statistics on immigration. I'm not entirely sure why they're so detailed. 我认为欧洲国家会从移民中受益。事实上，丹麦人有意思的一点是，他们对移民有非常细致的统计。我不完全确定为什么那么细。也许一路可以追溯到 Mogens Glistrup 和他九十年代的那场讨论，但他们确实有。

Maybe it's all the way back to Mogens Glistrup and his discussion in the '90s, but they do. And what's clear from those statistics is that when the Danes have folks from the UK, France, the US show up, on average, those immigrants are really beneficial to the Danish state. They contribute far more than what they ask of the state. So the Danes should accept immigrants who do that, who contribute far more than they take. Then you look at other forms of immigrant groups. 而这些统计清楚表明：当丹麦迎来英国、法国、美国的人时，平均而言，那些移民对丹麦国家非常有益。他们贡献的远多于他们向国家索取的。所以丹麦人应该接受那些这样做的移民，那些贡献远多于索取的人。然后你再看其他形式的移民群体。上周刚出来一份统计，是一位丹麦政治人物要求财政部用最新数字做的。积极移民让丹麦国家付出多少成本？

There was just a tally that came out last week from a Danish politician that had asked the, I think finance ministry to do this tally with the latest numbers. What does it cost the Danish state to have positive immigration? This case as I mentioned. I think for the, On that list whatever, France, UK, US, they were all clustered around the same thing, about $25,000 net benefit to the Danish state every year. It's like, wow, that's very positive. That's average again, right? 就是我刚才说的那种情况。我想在那份名单上，法国、英国、美国都聚在同一档，每年大约给丹麦国家带来两万五千美元的净收益。你会想：哇，这非常正面。这又是平均值，对吧？然后在光谱的另一端，成本最高的移民是索马里人。他们平均每年让丹麦国家花费两万八千美元。我认为丹麦人完全可以公平地说：“我们更希望多来一些法国人、英国人和美国人，而不是那么多索马里人。

And then at the other end of the spectrum on the most costly immigrants was Somalis. They ended up costing the Danish state on average $28,000 a year. I think it's fair for the Danes to go like, "We'd prefer to get more French, Brits, and Americans and not so many Somalis." - Why do you think you got so much hate on that post? - That's a very taboo topic in a lot of circles. - Some of it has to do with Overton window expansion? ”你觉得那篇帖子为什么会挨那么多恨？在很多圈子里，那是一个非常禁忌的话题。其中一些跟 Overton window 的扩大有关？我肯定有，但我也认为——我的意思是，我想在这里用最强的反方论证。我确实认为这可能变丑，对吧？这些事有没有可能直接滑向公然的种族主义，那种不以别的东西为基础、只是对他人的仇恨？

- I'm sure, but I also think-- I mean, I wanna take the steel man argument here. I do think that it, this can turn ugly, right? Is it possible for some of these things to just veer into overt racism that isn't founded in anything else but a hatred of other people? Yeah, that could happen. But that risk does not negate the need to have a discussion about the makeup of your country and what your immigration policy should be like. 对，那可能发生。但那种风险并不能抵消讨论你国家构成、以及移民政策应当如何的必要性。而且我还觉得特别好笑的是，尤其在欧洲，这场关于欧洲人是否有权对自己国家长什么样实行自决的讨论，如此短视，这个标准似乎只适用于那里。没有人去告诉日本人：“嘿，你们太日本了。

And I-- what I also find so funny is, especially in Europe, it's so kind of myopic that this discussion about whether Europeans should have a right to self-determination about what their countries look like, that standard seems to only apply there. No one is trying to tell the Japanese, "Hey, you, you're too Japanese." Like whatever, it's 98%, I think, in Tokyo that's, um-- ... Ethnic Japanese, right? ”东京那边，我想大约百分之九十八是族裔日本人，对吧？有没有人试着告诉日本人，如果他们的东京降到伦敦那种族裔日本人的水平，大概百分之三十七，会是一个好得多的国家？我不这么认为。所以这里有一种奇怪的、在我看来几乎是自我厌弃的东西。

Like, is anyone trying to tell the Japanese that their Tokyo would be a much better country if, if they were down to London levels of ethnic Japanese, that it was, whatever, 37%? I don't think so. Gad 把它叫做自杀式共情——它渗透进这些事的程度，我到现在还没完全拆开。这是从哪来的？为什么会这样？但不管怎样，我只是注意到：嘿，伦敦看起来不一样了。

So there's this weird almost self-loathing, in my opinion, I mean uh, Gad calls it suicidal empathy-- ... that permeates this stuff to a degree that I still haven't fully unpacked. Like, where is this coming from? Why is it that way? But regardless, I just noticed, hey, London looks different. 我更喜欢从前的伦敦，就像我会说我更喜欢我在哥本哈根长大的那个街区在八十年代的样子。我完全理解你随后可以连跳五步，然后说：“好吧，那就是种族主义。”而我现在也不在乎了。这是一场可以公平进行的讨论。

I preferred the old London, as I would say I preferred the neighborhood that I grew up in in Copenhagen, how it looked in the '80s. Like I-- I totally get how you can then jump five leaps and go like, "Okay, well-" That's racist. And I also, I don't care anymore. Like, this is a fair discussion to have. 国家和人民有权设定移民政策。那种认为我们不该有任何边界的想法，或者比那更糟的：一切只是一张白纸，所有人都是一样的，我们可以把人从地球的一个地方拿到另一个地方，然后一切都会顺利得不得了。

Countries and peoples have a right to set an immigration policy, and this notion that we shouldn't have any borders or, or even worse than that, it's all just a blank slate, that all peoples are just the same, and we can take people from one place of the earth and we can place them in another place on the earth and everything's just gonna work out hunky-dory. 经验上并非如此。欧洲从八十年代起就在跑这个实验。结果并不好，而现在欧洲有力量想撤销这个实验，想结束迄今为止那种大规模移民。而我恰好相信，多数丹麦人以及其他一些民族也相信：“你知道吗？是的，我们一直以来的做法没有奏效。我们必须做一些改变。 ”

Empirically not true. Europe has been running that experiment since the '80s. It hasn't panned out well, and now there are forces in Europe who wanna undo that experiment, who want to end mass immigration as it's been run so far. And I happen to believe, and so do a majority of Danes and a bunch of other peoples that like, "Do you know what? Yeah,it hasn't been working how we've been doing it. We gotta make some changes." And I don't think that means, again, zero immigration. 我并不认为那意味着零移民。再说一遍，我自己就是移民。我认为总体而言，美国从移民中获益巨大，但那是一种障眼法。移民极大地取决于谁在移民。当移民进来的人是对社会的净贡献者时，一个国家会受益，而且在大多数情况下，他们还与当地文化同化。如果你来到丹麦，想成为丹麦人，付出全部努力，并为社会做贡献，我认为大多数丹麦人会相当乐于在合理数量内允许这一点。

Again, I'm an immigrant. I think US, generally speaking, has benefited tremendously from immigration, but that's the kind of sleight of hand. Immigration depends greatly on who immigrates. And a country benefits when the people who immigrate are net contributors to the society, and in most cases,that they assimilate with the local culture. 如果你来到丹麦，不想同化，是对社会的净消耗，并且生活在一个平行社会里，丹麦人说“呃，我们别再这样了”也是公平的。有意思的是，我并不精通美国的移民制度，但据我了解，基于 merit 的制度在这里并没有通过。

If you come to Denmark and you wanna become a Dane, and you put in all the effort, and you contribute to so- society, I think most Danes would be quite happy to allow that in a reasonable number. If you come to Denmark and you don't wanna assimilate, and you are a net drain on society, and you live in a parallel society, it's also fair for Danes to say like, "Uh, let's stop doing that." 而且美国文化也非常不同。这一点直到我在两个地方都长时间生活过之后，才充分体会到。美国有一种可选同化的文化，对从丹麦或乌克兰或任何地方来的人来说，要容易得多，也更被允许：来到美国，接受美国那套价值观、规范和文化，然后能够被其他美国人尊重为美国人。

- It's interesting that I'm not well-versed on the immigration system in the United States, but as far as I understand, merit-based systems have not passed here. - And then also, American culture is very different. This is a point I did not fully appreciate until living both places extensively. 所以当有讨论说“美国是一个如此种族主义的国家”时，我觉得很好笑。我会想：你有没有去过别的地方？你知不知道其他国家是什么样？如果你认为美国是最种族主义的国家，那你只是被误导了。我们在丹麦待过的时间里就在处理这个。

America has a culture of optional assimilation, where it is much easier and then much more condoned for someone coming from Denmark or Ukraine or wherever, come to America, buy into the American set of values and norms and culture, and then be able to be respected as Americans by other Americans. This is what's so funny to me when there's discussion like, "America is such a racist country." I'm like, "Have you ever been anywhere? 我妻子是有斯堪的纳维亚血统的美国人，但已经在美国很多代了。非常难。非常难——作为一个金发蓝眼、已经付出各种努力去学语言、做所有该做的事的女人，要同化进丹麦文化仍然非常、非常难。而如果反过来，她是丹麦人搬到美国，那就完全不会那么难。

Do you know what other countries are like?" Like, if you think America is the most racist country, you are simply misinformed. I mean, we're dealing with that, with time we've spent in Denmark. My wife is American of Scandinavian heritage- ... but multiple generations in the US. Very difficult. 这也是另一件事。我的意思是，生活在丹麦这样的国家，身边是一位有斯堪的纳维亚血统、已经付出全部努力的美国妻子，仍然意识到：天哪，同化极其困难，即使你已经百分之九十七都到了。天哪，如果你来自一种完全外来的文化、外来的规范以及其他一切，那几乎必须是不可能的。

Very difficult- ... as a blonde, blue-eyed woman who's put in all sorts of efforts of learning the language and doing everything, still very, very difficult to assimilate to Danish culture. In a way where if that had been the other way around and she had been Danish and moving to the US, it would not have been that difficult at all. And this was the other thing. 当然，我刚才引用的那些统计也印证了这一点：文化越不相似、距离越远，成功的可能性就越低。把那种立场说出来，有没有让你失去友谊、关系？有，但我会说不只是那一件事。更多是 2020 年前后发生的那道巨大裂痕，我认为很多这些政治断层线真正裂开了。

I mean, living in a country like Denmark with a, an American wife who is of Scandinavian heritage and has put in all the effort, and still realizing, man, assimilation is incredibly difficult, even when you're 97% there all the way. Holy smokes, must it be almost impossible if you come from a completely foreign culture- ... and foreign norms and the rest of it. 在美国，简写大概就是：你 woke 还是不 woke？而很明显，有一堆我以为多年来关系不错的人，一旦那道政治断层裂开，他们显然就不再是了。我认为那很可惜。而且我试着去努力理解那是从哪来的，部分是因为这些话题里有几件我这些年自己也改了主意，就像：好吧，有时你只是随着时间改了主意。

And of course, that's what the stats I just quoted bear out, that the more dissimilar the culture is and the further it is the less likely to be successful. 有时你是在得到新信息之后改了主意。

- Has articulating that stance cost you friendships, relationships? - Yes, but not just that alone, I would say. It's more of the great divide that happened around 2020, where I think a lot of these political fault lines really opened up. And I mean, the shorthand in the US, I think is were you woke or not? 你可能改主意的原因和时刻有各种各样，而我们并不是按同一时间表改主意，甚至根本不改。所以让自己周围有、或者至少与那些并非在每个话题上都跟你想法一样的人互动，我认为相当健康。我偶尔会跟我兄弟讨论政治。

And clearly, I had a bunch of people that I thought I had good relations with for many years, who suddenly once that political fault line opened up, they were clearly just not anymore. And I think that's regrettable. And I think I've, I've tried to put an effort into, um, sort of both understanding where that comes from, in part because I've changed my mind on several of these topics over the years, and it was like, well,sometimes you just change your mind after time. 我们在这些话题上并不完全看法一致，有时讨论会有点激烈，但然后也会冷静下来，我们意识到：好吧，这件事我们不同意，然后在很多其他事情上我们同意。我们欣赏很多同样的东西。而这其实是我们在 Basecamp 大爆发时，我以一种全新方式体会到的事情——更早的那种规范：跟陌生人甚至熟人、当然还有同事谈政治、宗教或钱，只是不是好主意。如果你不把政治分歧整天互相摩擦，你更有可能跟某人维持一段良好的工作关系。所以我其实认为自由派和保守派应该一起工作。

Sometimes you change your mind after you get new information. There's all sorts of reasons and moments why you may change your mind, and we don't all change our mind on the same schedule or at all. Um, so surrounding yourselves and, and or at least interacting with people that don't think like you on every topic, I think it's quite healthy. I mean, I occasionally discuss politics with my brother. 我认为如果部落之间完全隔离，这个国家会糟糕得多，不能有任何重叠或互动。而我认为，如果你不只是把注意力放在分歧上，那种交融会容易得多。把注意力放在你们共同喜欢的东西上。我在科技圈里不幸疏远的一些人，我们曾经有那么多共同点，对 Ruby 或其他东西有那么多共同的爱，那不是很可惜吗？我希望生活在一个世界里，分歧本身也非常有意思，值得拿出来谈。

I mean, we don't quite see eye to eye on all these topics, and sometimes the discussions can get a little heated, but then they'll also calm down and we realize, all right, okay, so we don't agree on this, and then we agree on a lot of other things. We appreciate a lot of the same things. 是的。而且不要过度情绪化——。对。哪怕面对激进的分歧。因为在分歧里，首先，有意思的东西就在那里。是的。而且，那也是你成长的方式。一个社会健康的标志是，分歧被拥抱，并被带到共同体里，你可以在那里谈论它。

Now, this was actually one of the things when we had our big blowup at Basecamp, I came to appreciate in a whole new way this- Earlier norm that talking politics or religion or money with strangers or even acquaintances, and certainly with colleagues, was just not a good idea. That you had a much higher likelihood of being able to carry a good working relationship with someone if you're not rubbing your political differences up against each other all the time. 对我来说，其中一个很好的例证，是我看过 William F. Buckley 节目的一个片段。我记得叫 Firing Line 或者类似的名字。对，对。他请了一位 Black Panthers 的成员上他的讨论。很显然，那两位先生在政治上共同点不多。他们却能把一场对话进行下去，我看了大概二十五分钟。而 Buckley 只是在问：“那你对这个怎么看？

So I actually think liberals and conservatives should work together. I think the country would be much worse off if there's a complete separation between the tribes, and then there can't be any overlap or interaction. And I think that mingling is so much easier to do if you just don't focus on your differences all the time. Focus on what you like together. I mean, this is some of the people I've had unfortunately drifted from in tech. 对那个怎么看？ ”然后那位 Black Panther 会按你预期七十年代的 Black Panther 会答的那样回答。并没有多少和解的语气。而我只是想：哇，这太稀有了。如果你今天看到那个节目，那会是一场叫喊赛。那会只是指控被来回扔。 Buckley 能够跟他强烈不同意的人进行这些对话，仍然探索他们立场的所有智识面向，并让他们就那些面向发言，这说的是一个失落的时代，我非常希望能回去。

We had so much in common, so much shared love for, say, Ruby or other things and, like, isn't that unfortunate? 我。其实一直喜欢跟我信任的朋友谈政治，那些能以一种不必变成存在主义的方式谈这些话题的人。

- I would like to live in a world where the differences are the, are very interesting to also talk about. - Yes. - And not to be overly emotional- - Correct. - ... about even radical differences. Because in the differences, first of all, that's where interesting stuff is. - Yes. - And, but also, it's how you grow. 但当前这个时代有某种东西，让那种对话越来越难遇到。所以你刚才说的那些，重要的是要经常说出来，提醒人们这是我们都该追求的理想：能够有分歧，能够交谈，能够谈论它们。

It's a sign of health in a society if the,the differences are embraced and they are brought together into community where you can talk about it. - One of the great illustrations of that for me was when I watched a clip from William F. Buckley's show. I think it was called Firing Line or- - Yeah, yeah - ... something like that. And he had a member of the Black Panthers- ... on his panel. It was quite obvious that those two gentlemen did not share a lot of politics. 因为政治其实很有趣。我已经习惯了说我讨厌政治，但我真正的意思是，无论当前正在发生的那套系统是什么，有某些话题，我们都知道所有你能说的套话，那会莫名把你放进蓝色或红色的箱子里，然后制造戏剧，而不是一场对话。比如，如果我没在看互联网，我能想出一堆无害的陈述，。用来分析世界上的局势，却会触发所有人说：“哦，那家伙是个左派——。是的。 ——混蛋，”或者一个右翼法西斯。

They were able to carry a conversation for, I think I watched it, 25 minutes. And Buckley's just asking, like, "So what do you think about this? What do you think about this?" And like, the Black Panther would reply as you would expect the Black Panther to reply in the '70s. Like, there was not a lot of sort of conciliatory tones. And I just thought, like, wow, that is so rare. If you had seen that show today, it would've been a shouting match. 然后客观地说，如果我没在看互联网，我会吃惊，而且我确实吃惊过。因为我并没有很深地盯着互联网。但是在阅读和准备，比如乌克兰战争时，我吃惊于我的某些陈述会显得偏这一边或那一边，然后我为此被恶毒攻击。但那种攻击在说的是：“嘿，你这个以为自己可以随便走动、自由思考的混蛋，选一个箱子——是的。 ——然后坐进那个该死的箱子里。

It would've been just accusations being hurled back and forth. The fact that Buckley was able to just have these conversations with people he vehemently disagreed with and still explore all the intellectual facets of their standpoints and letting them speak to those facets, talks of a lost era that I'd very much like to get back to. ”是的。穿上那件蓝衬衫或红衬衫。然后我实际上意识到，局面会平静下来。如果你只是说“我是蓝的”或“我是红的”，系统不会针对你。对。但如果你只是好奇地探索世界、对世界进行推理，系统就会惩罚你。

I mean, I always actually loved talking politics with friends that I trusted could talk about these topics in a way where it didn't have to be existential. - But there's something about the current era where that's harder and harder to come by. And so what you just articulated is important to say regularly to remind people of an ideal we should all strive for, to be able to have differences and talk, and talk about them. 'Cause like, politics is fun. 我讨厌这一点，因为我想回到 Buckley 和 Black Panther 那种讨论。是的。而你刚才只是在说观点。但然后务实地看局势，我已经意识到，除非我真的在乎一个议题，否则不要提政治。因为我意识到有代价。他们会把你放进蓝箱子或红箱子。所以你必须更有意识地去选择。是的。我也试着对此更有意识。然后当我确实选择开口时，通常是因为我已经深思过，并且认为： “你知道吗？

Like I've gotten used to saying I hate politics at this point, but what I really mean is whatever the system that's currently happening, where there's certain topics, and I just we know all the phrases you can say, That somehow put you in a bin of blue or red, and that creates drama versus a conversation. 这值得。 ”我这样说，然后我也经常抓住自己想相反的事：我因为某人的技术工作而关注他，然后了解到他的政治立场。而我常常会想：“我真希望我不知道这个。

Like I could, I could think of a lot of harmless, if I wasn't paying attention to the internet, I could think of a bunch of harmless statements I could make analyzing the situation in the world that would trigger everybody to say, "Oh, that guy's a leftist-" - Yes. - ... piece of shit," or a you know, a right-wing fascist. And then objectively, if I wasn't paying attention to the internet, I would be, and I have been shocked. ”所以，对别人那样想，然后又说“好吧，偶尔我也会加入一场有争议的辩论”，这是虚伪的，而你必须接受那是有代价的。而且我确实认为你应该、而且更多人应该，对此多少有些自觉。再说一遍，我们俩在这里都在自我矛盾，但同时又说：“如果能在一个更自由、更开放的论坛上谈政治，只是在智识上把想法翻来覆去，那不是很好吗？ ”是的，会很好。在当前社交媒体之类的气候里，这目前可能吗？

'Cause I haven't been paying attention to the internet deeply. Uh but reading and preparing a lot, for example, for, for the war in Ukraine, and I have been shocked how certain statements from me can come off as one way or the other, and I get viciously attacked for it. But what that attack is doing is it's saying, "Hey, you, asshole who thinks you could just move about and think freely, pick a bin- - Yes. - ... and sit in that fucking bin." - Yes. 相当困难。其中一些也可能只是一个时刻，而我们能走过那个时刻。对。我希望如此。也许有办法回到 Buckley 与 Black Panthers 的那种对话，哪怕是在社交媒体上，以一种那些讨论不会导向我们曾经有过的那种恶毒的群体取消闹剧的方式，对吧？我其实认为我们现在比五年前更接近那里。

- Put on that blue shirt or red shirt. And then actually what I've realized is things calm down. They don't, the system doesn't pick on you if you just say, "I'm a blue person," or, "I'm a red person." - Right. - But if you're just, like, curiously exploring the world and reasoning about the world, the system punishes you. And I hate that, 'cause I wanna get back to the Buckley and the Black Panther discussion. - Yes. 比如，那些部落能对异端施加的部落主义和制裁，在 2020 年远大于 2025 年。至少在科技圈内部是这样。我知道如果你在学术界，试着走进哈佛的社会学系，提一些右翼想法。我不认为那会顺利，也不认为你会很快从中恢复。但至少在科技和许多其他商业领域，现在已经可以持有一个与 2020 年共识对不上的观点。那是肯定的。

- And you were just saying opinions. But then looking pragmatically at the situation, I have realized not to mention politics unless I really care about an issue. 'Cause I realize there's a cost. They'll, they'll put you in the blue bin or red bin. So you have to be more deliberate about choosing. - Yes. And I've tried to be more conscious of that, too. And then when I do choose to speak about it, it's usually because I have deliberated, and I think- ... "You know what? Rails 社区里有一些戏剧。别处也有一些戏剧。那后来怎样了？都还好吗？就每新一轮戏剧都会缩小这个意义上，是的。所以就像我们在 2020 年前后有过这场超级戏剧的高峰感染，跟其他每个社区同一时间的高峰感染一样。然后你就会看到，每次再有新的爆发，都更小了。而那些在意识形态上绑定于那种斗争的人，也越缩越小。到了这个地步，在我看来，X 发生过的最好的事情之一，就是 Bluesky 和 Mastodon 出现了。因为它某种程度上成了当时 X 和 Twitter 上最恶毒的那些人的蜜罐，对吧？他们就聚集在这里，在一个不断缩小的回音室里，经历一轮又一轮的纯洁周期，每一次都更小，直到剩下的人不多了。而现在还留在那里的人，已经眼不见心不烦。而且这并不是说 X 就是某种完美的地方，或者那里偶尔没有行刑队，或者没有…

This is worth it." Now, I say that, and then I also catch myself thinking the opposite all the time, that I follow some person or another for whatever their technical work, and then I- ... learned or political standpoint. …但更少了。每次我被拉进一个 Mastodon——或者说没有被拉进去，只是从远处旁观——一条 Bluesky 之类的帖子串，都会像：“哦操，对，这就是 Twitter 以前的样子。天哪。 ”而现在你真的可以待在 X 上，像我这样，我百分之九十的互动都是关于酷的 Linux 东西、酷的技术东西。 “看，我发现了一台新电脑。你能看见它有多快吗？ ”而我可以跟其他同样为电脑感到兴奋的人进行那些对话。

And I often do think, "I wish I didn't know that." So, it's hypocritical- ... then to think that of other people and then go like, "Well, occasionally I will- ... chime in on a debate that's controversial," and then you have to accept that there is a price to that. And I do think you should, and more people should, be somewhat conscious about that. 然后大概还剩百分之十，像：好吧，我会就某件有点争议的事插一句，我们可以在那里小小讨论一下。然后我们就可以回到为电脑感到兴奋。算法其实非常擅长找到你会觉得有意思的东西，或者我不该那么说，是能让你投入的东西。有时它让人生气，但它确实让人投入，因此，揭示出的偏好是：大多数人想要一个 For You 页面。他们不只想要一个 following feed。不，但他们对 For You 页面上瘾，对吧？他们… …是的，是的。那是真的。我认为一个 LLM，如果我们有一个强的 LLM 来做个性化的 feed，会好得多。问题是如何按规模交付，这极其困难。问题在于奖励函数是投入度。

And again, we're both contradicting ourselves here, but saying like, "Wouldn't it be nice if we could talk about politics in a more free and open forum and just intellectually turn ideas around?" Yes, it would. Is that currently possible in the climate of social media and so forth? It's quite difficult. Now, some of it could simply also be a moment, and we could get past that moment. - Yeah. 而一旦奖励函数是投入度，投入度就会跟着本能走，然后我们就到了这里。但我也不想那么负面。对我来说，我明白我们都有自己个性化的算法，有时会有点过。但我会说，平均而言，过去十年里，这是 X 最好的时候。而我这样说，是作为一个在乎大量技术讨论、大量 Linux 讨论以及那一类事情的人。那些讨论现在能够发生，而且不会不断被想把它拖进某种政治讨论的人闯进来——我发现这真的很棒。我其实发现 X 是找这些东西的好地方。当然它也是找其他东西的地方，而我们都有自己的算法，所以你不能对 X 是什么或不是什么做任何宣言式的宣布。你的 feed 大概跟我的完全不同，也跟别人的完全不同，对吧？对，我没法评论这个，因为我采访各种各样的人，这个性质决定了，我的 feed 大概就是——。

I hope so. - Maybe there is a way to get back to Buckley's conversation with the Black Panthers, even on social media, in a way where those discussions don't lead to the sort of just vicious mob cancellation nonsense drives that we've had, right? I actually think we're closer there now than we were five years ago. Like, the tribalism and the sanctions those tribes were able to exact on heretics in 2020 was way greater than it was in 2025. Certainly within tech. 这对你的 feed 是好事还是坏事，你必须这样吗？是坏事。是坏事，因为我可能说：“我在吃这个苹果。太好吃了。 ”然后一堆人就会出现：“那是因为你是 Zelensky 的走狗——对，没错。 ——或者你是 Putin 的走狗，你这混蛋。 ”然后就像，好吧。那我就回去——我偶尔也会有一点这种，你会想：“等一下，什么？我们在谈什么？你… …你为什么会以这种方式出现？ ”这也是我其实非常喜欢播客的原因之一，因为我发现，哪怕在长文写作里，当我做长篇论证时，人们会用他们脑子里为我准备好的那种声音来听。而那种声音往往在论证之前就被预先编程好了，就像：好吧，这家伙是个什么法西斯。然后他们听见那些词，用那些名字去读那些词。当他们看见或听见我呈现这些论证时的实际语气，他们可能仍然不同意那些论证。他们里很多人当然显然不同意。但那样就更难直接把某人打发掉或恨掉。

Now, I know if you're in academia, I mean, try going into the sociology department at I don't know, Harvard and mention some right-wing ideas. I don't think it's gonna go over very well, and I don't think you're gonna recover from it quickly. But in tech and in many other business domains at least, it is now possible to have an opinion that does not square with what the consensus was in 2020. That's for sure. - Well, there's some drama in the Rails community. 至少这是我的发现，也是我得到的回应：人们会说，“好吧，我曾经有某种看法，然后我在 Lex 这里听见你。那听起来其实合理得多。 ”但比那更进一步，我希望人们能对其他人采用这种态度：先假定他们是好人。是的。然后，如果他们有一个你不同意的观点，他们是一个持有某个观点的好人。你也许可以觉得他们蠢，可以。就当他们迷路了。但把他们当成好人。我认为，如果你开始那样想——能带来投入度的事情之一，就是踩别人。对。而如果你接近别人时就是在找坏，你总会在他们身上找到坏。他们身上总有让人烦的东西。百分之百。而如果你那样看人，你不会从中学到东西，你会把心里装满恨。你不会，那只是一种糟糕的生活方式和与世界互动的方式，而这正是互联网某种程度上在鼓励的事。所以，如果你哪怕对那些你真的很不同意的人，也能接近成：哦，我也许能从这个人身上学到东西。

There's some drama elsewhere. Is it, is it all... How did that turn out? Is that all okay? - In the sense that every single round of drama shrinks. So it's like we've,we had this peak infection of mega drama around the same time every other community had a peak infection of drama around 2020. And then you just see, like, every time there's a new flare up, it's less. 那位 Black Panther，William Buckley，我们也许会恨，也也许会爱他们。所以这件事的一个缩影。有个叫 Theo 的人，我不知道你关不关注他。关注，关注。我们。因为不再在一个项目里用 TypeScript 有过一点过节——。对——他不喜欢那样，对此以及其他举动有看法。那之后我想：真是个傻瓜。你知道吗？我仍然觉得那是个傻瓜举动，然后我也可以想：好吧，这家伙真的很投入 AI。他在试所有这些模型，而我们可以分享对那件事的一些兴奋，所以我昨天才开始关注他。太好了。我就想：你知道吗？我不必在所有事情上同意你。我甚至不必喜欢你做过或说过的某些事。

And the kind of people who are ideologically wedded to sort of that struggle just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. And at this point, one of the best things that happened for X, in my opinion, was that Bluesky and Mastodon came around. Because it kind of was like this honeypot for just the most vicious individuals on X and Twitter at the time, right? 我仍然可以关注你。所以如果我能回头关注 Theo，那我觉得世界和平还有空间。对，他其实是个很好的例子。他非常有主见，经常改主意，会尖酸，但我认为他骨子里是个好人。不管怎样，你知道吗？当有人在谈我在乎的事情时，我的 feed 更有意思，而我不必在所有事情上同意你。我就是不必。我发现挺好笑的，你提到你妻子说过一句让你记住的话：所有这些科技圈周边、男性对极端长寿的执着，就像女性的厌食症，是焦虑和失控感的一种身体表现。那不知怎的听起来有点真。对很多人来说当然是真的。我觉得那条推文真的爆了，我不知道你有没有注意到，Bryan Johnson 也进了那个帖子串，而我能理解 Bryan 会把那当成一种刺。

Who just congregated here in an ever-shrinking echo chamber that just went through purity cycle after purity cycle and shrank every single time to the point that there were just not a lot left. And the people who are left now there, they're just out of sight, out of mind. And that's not to say that X is some sort of perfect place, or there aren't firing squads occasionally there, or there aren't... But there's less of it. 我也确实认为 Jamie 在那次谈话里大概想到了他，以及其他一些人。而且这也是一个例子：即使我并不认同 Bryan 的使命，我想那句口号是 don't die。我其实想死。我不想永远做这件事。我认为人类大约九十到一百岁的寿命听起来刚刚好。我接受生命的有限。我们不必在这一点上同意。事实上，Bryan 对我来说是一个有意思得多的人，正因为我们在那一点上不同意，而 Bryan 愿意为那个使命真正把自己的皮肤和各种其他身体要素押上去，这真的很有意思。现在，我可以持有那种看法：这真的很有意思。我很高兴 Bryan 在追求他的这份热情，然后同时也觉得我妻子的分析说中了，看起来确实有某种底层的，我不知道，对… …的恐惧。我昨天还在跟 Jamie 谈这个，她说，或者把它比成那种感觉：有些人觉得自己活得还不够。

Like, every single time I've been pulled into a Mastodon, or not been pulled in, just spectated from afar, thread, a Bluesky or whatever, it was like, "Oh, shit yeah, this is what Twitter used to be like. Jesus." And now you can actually be on X, as I am, and, like, 90% of my engagement is about cool Linux stuff, cool technology stuff. "Look, I discovered a new computer. 而他们也许活得不够的原因之一，是现代社会现在是一个监控国家，其实不是国家在监控，而是彼此在监控。到处都是带摄像头的手机。每一次失检，甚至每一次好玩或尴尬的爆发，都极有可能被录下来，然后被分享到被嘲弄的程度，而人类在那些条件下的理性反应就是后撤，就是确保你不要像没人在看那样跳舞，因为他们大概正在拍你，好让你在互联网上永远尴尬，所以也许你根本不该跳舞。因此，如果我们都收缩到几乎没在活的程度，我们就会死死抓住想让它永远持续。现在——我的意思是，我肯定这个论点并不适用于所有情形。我甚至不知道它是否适用于 Bryan 或这里的任何其他人。但我认为这里有些东西：如果你觉得自己真正活过了，你就可以安心地想：我已经活够了。

Can you see how fast it is?" And I can have those conversations with other people who are just also excited about computers. And then there's, like, 10% of it left that's like, all right, I'll chime in on something that's a little controversial, and we can have a little discussion there. And then we can just go back to being excited about computers. The algorithm is actually very good at finding stuff that you will find interesting, or s- I shouldn't say that, engaging. 而它有一个终点，并不是一件要去对抗的事。那么，这是否也可能全是存在主义的事后合理化，而如果明天有一颗长生不老药，我们都会吃？对，那有可能。如果我们那样做了，社会是否会因此更糟？有可能。人类寿命之所以是这个长度，是否也可能出于社会学原因，而不只是生物学原因？有可能。所以我认为这些都只是有意思的问题，而我只是觉得她的分析真正触及了这里的某件事。后来那场讨论又出现了。我是说，那条推文大概有一年了。但就在最近，我们一直在谈这些过度优化的人。我看到 Chris Williamson，Modern Wisdom，有一段，他像是在说：“是啊，好吧，也许我们确实有点过了。 ”触发点是 Diary of a CEO，主持人说了大意是：“我喝了一杯酒，接下来三天都毁了。 ”而那对我来说，我是说，在他的情形里，我相信那是真的。

Sometimes it's enraging, but it is engaging, and therefore, revealed preference is that most people want a For You page. They don't want just a following feed. - No, but they're addicted to the For You page, right? - They... Yes, yes. That's true. - I think an LLM, like, if we had a strong LLM doing the feed that's personalized, it would do much better. 如果你很久没喝任何酒精，然后只喝一点点，我能理解它会有影响。但那里面也有某种东西，触发了很多人和我自己的一种本能反应，我会想：“操，我现在就该来一杯酒，哪怕我通常不喝。 ”而事实上我认为酒精这个问题是一个很好的缩影，可以放大来看。所以我们好像都戒酒了，酒精销量大幅下降——尤其在年轻人里。然后一方面，按纯粹的健康指标，我们会说：“哦哇，那不是很好吗？ ”然后我会想：“是啊，我没那么确定。 ”酒精所能提供的社交润滑也许会被怀念，正在被怀念。我们正处在一场孤独、痛苦和抑郁的绝对流行病里，其中相当一部分大概只是因为你跟其他人互动得不够。而这还没谈到配对，对吧？大幅下降，人们很难遇到配偶。

The problem is how to deliver that at scale is extremely difficult. - Well, the problem is the reward function is engagement. And as soon as the reward function is engagement- ... engagement's gonna follow base instincts, and here we go. 而其中很多已经转移到各种带来负面结果和后果的 app 上，对吧？也许我们会回头看，或者我们已经在回头看，然后想：“呃，你知道吗？偶尔喝醉一次，也许并不是世上最糟的事。 ”无论醉或不醉，也许只是每周五或周六出门时喝上两杯，就是帮助社会走到今天的一部分。也许人类大约一万三千年来一直在喝酒、用来修补关系，有一种社会目的，而我们拆掉 Chesterton's fence 时会自食其果，对吧？

But I also don't wanna be so negative. To me, and I get we all have our own personalized algorithms, and sometimes it gets a little much. But I would say, on average, over the last 10 years, this is the best X has ever been. 正如你提到的，本着那种精神，所以当我穿越中国乡村时，我二十出头时抽过一点烟，但那次旅行我又捡起来了——。一种社交连接器，对吧？而且我喝了海量的酒，尽管我这些天其实不怎么喝，就因为那种社交的事。那是他们表达爱的方式。我也吃了大量碳水，而我通常低碳水。我就是喜欢肉。就因为那是他们表达爱的方式。而实际上，哪怕在那个社会里是香烟，在大多数社会里，酒也是一件要一起做的事。它是一种纽带。它所带来的好处，在很多情形下，可以超过那些负面后果，比如无论你怎么衡量的长期影响。而这就是现代性的短视：我们把事情简化成，好吧，这项长期研究里，一杯酒意味着你某种心脏缺陷的风险高了百分之零点一。是的，但如果你根本没在活，那有什么意义？而且同样也很容易翻到另一边。比如唯一的活法就是每个周末喝醉、吃一堆垃圾、一天抽四十根烟。不，不是。不必是非此即彼。这也是我不再戴 Oura Ring 的原因之一。我戴了那个 Oura 睡眠戒指很多年，四年。然后有一天我就想：“我不需要知道我昨晚睡得很差。

And I say that as someone who cares about a lot of technology talk, a lot of Linux talk, and a lot of that. That that's able to happen now in a way where it doesn't constantly get gatecrashed by people who wanna drag it into some political discussion- ... I find to be really awesome. ”我知道。这增加的，我不想叫它焦虑，我没有很多焦虑，但这增加的只是一种提醒：我睡得很差，它在这里到底起什么作用？我为什么需要所有这些统计？我为什么需要优化一切？到了那个程度，再说一遍，在 Diary of a CEO 那个单一轶事之后，我就想：“操，我有点想要相反的。 ”我几乎完全不喝。也许一个月一杯酒。你知道吗？我应该开始，就在周末，来一杯。也许两杯。而且，我从来不是那种为饮食发愁的人。这是嫁给——我这里要岔开一句。永远不要叫一个四十多岁的女人 wonderful woman。我妻子当时气坏了——不仅去年我在她生日那天来上节目，那就已经够糟了，还在节目里叫她 wonderful woman，因为那听起来像她名叫 Nancy，六十五岁，住在 Rochester 郊区。所以我想着我是在打五十岁那张牌。就像，不，我不知道，我是丹麦人。我怎么会知道？但那并不顺利。所以我要改口说 awesome woman。如果你娶到一个 awesome woman，她不仅会做饭，还享受做饭，你知道吗？

I find actually X to be a great place to find that. Now, it's also a place to find other things, and we all have our own algorithms, so you can't make any declarative announcements about what X is or what it isn't. Your feed is probably totally different from my feed, and it's totally different from someone else's feed, right? 这里有一种非常传统的劳动分工，在人类社会里已经相当稳定地存在了好几万年，那也许也不是世上最糟的主意。我也知道有很多男人喜欢做饭，也有女人不喜欢。但就刻板印象而言，呃，那确实帮了我。如果我不是经常吃得相对健康，我想我不会对食物这么放松。但总的观点是：从那种优化游戏里走出来，同时不要翻到反面。你也不必变成沙发上的胖子。你可以动一动。对。然后我们谈的更大一点是生命的有限。是的。在这一点上我同意你。这其实是一个功能，我把它做进了 Omarchy。所以 memento mori。记住死亡。如果你在 Omarchy 里把日历拉下来，你点时钟就能打开它。它打开后，第一个有意思的东西，我从互联网上拿来的。有一个账号叫 Year's Progress，它每天更新，只显示 2026 年已经过了百分之六十三。我不知道你有没有见过那个。它就那样填满。所以我把它做进了日历。所以现在它写着：“我们 2026 年已经过了百分之六十三。 ”但如果你双击那一行，它会问你：“你哪年出生？你预期活多久？ ”默认是九十岁。

- Yeah, I can't comment on this because of the nature of the fact that I interview a wide variety of people,my feed is probably just a- - Is it, is it good for your feed or is it bad for your feed that you have to have it right? 所以我填了 1979。然后就在“这一年过了多少”那一行下面——哦，那太美了。 ——是一行新的，显示你的生命过了多少。我想我在百分之六十二。如果你把鼠标悬上去，它写着：“Memento mori。 ”那太美了。不少人觉得这阴暗，但这就是为什么它是一个彩蛋。它没有直接暴露出来。你得点几下才能到那里。我喜欢这个提醒。我喜欢被提醒时间是有限的，我应该好好利用它。而这也可以是有孩子的特权之一。你真的会意识到那些套话全是真的。天哪，过得太快了。我记得我现在十三岁的孩子一岁、两岁的时候。我会想：“这不就是昨天吗？ ”而它之所以是套话，是因为它是一种共享体验。套话是好的。它们提醒你，你是人类体验的一部分，别人在你之前已经到过这里。我必须问，你提到那个 amazing woman，还是很会做饭。 Amazing。非常重要要记住。不是 wonderful，是 amazing。 Amazing。所以有这件事… …你吐槽过可颂什么的。我在一条推文里看到的。所以丹麦可颂不知怎的更好吗？其实，丹麦可颂并不是特别好。

- It's bad. It's bad 'cause I could be like, "I'm eating this apple. 在我看来，唯一能找到还算过得去的可颂的地方，说来好笑，居然是 7-Eleven，这让我觉得很好笑，因为美国的 7-Eleven，至少在芝加哥，是你去买 slushie、还得尽量避免被杀的地方。但在丹麦，7-Eleven 是这种很上档次、超级好的便利店，而他们恰好能做出像样的可颂。这总让我困惑：我在美国住了整整二十年。我还没吃过一个能达到哥本哈根 7-Eleven 可颂水平的可颂。那看起来不太可能。你搞明白为什么了吗？没有，我认真考虑过雇一个调查记者把这件事查到底，因为我听过的理论遍地都是。是水。是黄油。是手艺。是这个、那个、另一个。我都对不上。如果是黄油，你不能进口吗？我好像在这边一些超市见过丹麦黄油，比如 Lurpak。所以不可能是那个。会是手艺吗？不可能是手艺。世界上最好的可颂师傅，有很多法国人和比利时人住在美国。那原因是什么？然后我得到第二种说法，就是：“不，不，你只是没去对的地方。 ”我真的去过十五家所谓“对的地方”，所有可颂都是垃圾。所以在我离开这个星球之前，我必须搞清楚为什么美国做不出一个像样的可颂。

It's so delicious." And then a bunch of people will show up, "Well, it's because you're a Zelensky shill- - Yeah, right. - ... or you're a Putin shill, you piece of shit." It's like, all right. I'll just go back to the- - I mean, I occasionally have a little bit of that where you just go like, "Wait, what? 而且我甚至不是在要求巅峰的法国可颂、巅峰的比利时可颂——那是世界上最好的可颂。我只是在要求哥本哈根 7-Eleven 的那个可颂。这要求过分吗？那是一个迷人的谜。往外拉一层，你最喜欢的… …这让我想知道，你最喜欢的一餐是什么？比如，如果我给你最后一餐，然后把你杀了。这完全取决于是午餐还是晚餐。如果是午餐，它——就是一餐。什么… …我觉得如果你要被杀，午餐还是晚餐其实无所谓。那取决于你在一天的什么时候被杀。哦，我明白了。如果是下午处决，我就只有午餐。好。而如果我吃午餐，那是在 Louisiana，哥本哈根北面的那家博物馆。两天前我刚跟 Jamie 去过，我们经常去。博物馆很可爱。我们不是为博物馆去的。我们是为食堂去的。这本身听起来就疯。就像——对，确实——你要开半小时车去一家食堂。好吧，它恰好是我这辈子大概吃过的最好的午餐。那里的主厨就是好得令人难以置信，而且对爱做系统思考的我的脑子来说，更惊人的是：我们在那里的任何时候，我想大概有两百人在等他们的食物。而我们的食物五分钟就上来了。他们菜单很小，而且显然是批量做的，却美味得难以置信。

What are we talking about? What are you... Why would you show up in this way?" This is one of the reasons why I actually really enjoy podcasts, because I have found that even in long-form writing, when I make long-form arguments, people hear it in whatever voice they have in their head for me. 就是博物馆里的一家食堂？就是博物馆里的一家食堂，却恰好有我这辈子在任何地方吃过的最好的午餐。我们说的是哪种食物？哪种午餐食物？是那种北欧料理，所以它是… …有意思的是菜单，我看着它会想：“你知道吗？如果我小时候看到这张菜单，我会说，我不在这儿吃。 ”就像，我不知道——这挺精致的——根茎类、水果，还有洋葱，还有各种健康的东西。听起来很恶心。然后你坐下吃，天使在唱歌。但比那还更特别。是黄油。他们那里的打发黄油，世界上任何地方最好的黄油。我觉得这一定也跟可颂之谜有关。一定有某种联系。但真的——哪怕在巴黎，我也从没吃过像哥本哈根 Louisiana 的黄油那样好吃的打发黄油。真的，我会开三十分钟车，就为了在 Louisiana 的食堂吃面包和黄油。那你怎么发现的？就是有一天你去了博物馆然后——我想我们就是去了博物馆——。然后你试了一整道菜。 ——然后我们吃了午餐，然后我们就… …这很怪。这能媲美我这辈子去过的最好吃的餐厅，而我去过几次 Noma，该试的都试过了，而这个就在那个水平上。好。那晚餐呢，既然你提到了？

And that often gets pre-programmed in advance of the arguments, just like, well, this guy is a, whatever, fascist. And then they hear the words and they read the words in those names. 是不是得想点不同的——我想哥本哈根有很多好选择，但其实我会选西班牙的一个地方。马尔贝拉有个地方叫 Puente Romano。那是一家酒店，海边有这家海滩餐厅，新鲜海鲜。美味得难以置信。我想不起它叫什么了，但如果你去查，Puente Romano 的海滩海鲜餐厅非常棒。美食有多少是地方、以及你跟谁在一起，对吧？或者你第一次在那里的体验？氛围。当然有帮助，但我觉得我的味蕾也只是——。好，那——对味道很准——所以是真的。 ——它就是好食物。就是真的很好吃。因为比如说那个食堂，人很多。我不会把它评成：哦天哪，这就是我想坐两个小时的地方。但食物太好吃了。这是我穿越这个国家时正在意识到的一件事：不带偏见地去尝。因为你可能会，我想你可能会感到惊喜。也许我会找到你的可颂。好，我们谈过死亡。谈过食物。我的 feed 大概就是——。这对你的 feed 是好事还是坏事，你必须这样吗？是坏事。是坏事，因为我可能说：“我在吃这个苹果。太好吃了。 ”然后一堆人就会出现：“那是因为你是 Zelensky 的走狗——对，没错。 ——或者你是 Putin 的走狗，你这混蛋。

When they see or hear the actual tone of how I'm presenting the arguments, they may not agree with those arguments. I mean, many of them, of course, obviously don't. ”然后就像，好吧。那我就回去——我偶尔也会有一点这种，你会想：“等一下，什么？我们在谈什么？你… …你为什么会以这种方式出现？ ”这也是我其实非常喜欢播客的原因之一，因为我发现，哪怕在长文写作里，当我做长篇论证时，人们会用他们脑子里为我准备好的那种声音来听。而那种声音往往在论证之前就被预先编程好了，就像：好吧，这家伙是个什么法西斯。然后他们听见那些词，用那些名字去读那些词。当他们看见或听见我呈现这些论证时的实际语气，他们可能仍然不同意那些论证。他们里很多人当然显然不同意。

But it's much harder to just dismiss or hate someone like that. At least that's what I've found, and that's the response that I've gotten, that people are like, "Well, I had a certain opinion and then I heard you on Lex. That actually sounded much more reasonable." - But even more than that, I would love it if people just exercise this kind of approach to other people of, like, assuming they're a good person. - Yes. 但那样就更难直接把某人打发掉或恨掉。至少这是我的发现，也是我得到的回应：人们会说，“好吧，我曾经有某种看法，然后我在 Lex 这里听见你。那听起来其实合理得多。”但比那更进一步，我希望人们能对其他人采用这种态度：先假定他们是好人。是的。

- And then, and if they have an opinion you disagree with, they're a good person who has an opinion. You can maybe think they're stupid, fine. Just think they're lost. But think of them as a good person. I think if you think of, you start, there's, one of the things that gets engagement is kind of shitting on other people. - Right. - And if you just approach other people as they're, you're looking for bad, you will always find bad in them. 然后，如果他们有一个你不同意的观点，他们是一个持有某个观点的好人。你也许可以觉得他们蠢，可以。就当他们迷路了。但把他们当成好人。我认为，如果你开始那样想——能带来投入度的事情之一，就是踩别人。对。而如果你接近别人时就是在找坏，你总会在他们身上找到坏。

There's something annoying about them. - 100%. 他们身上总有让人烦的东西。百分之百。

- And if you look at people in that way, you're not gonna learn from it, and you're gonna fill your heart with hate. You're not gonna, it's just a bad way to live and to interact with the world, and that is one of the things that the internet kind of encourages, so. It'd be nice if you just approach even people who you really disagree with, it's like, oh, I might learn something from this person. 而如果你那样看人，你不会从中学到东西，你会把心里装满恨。你不会，那只是一种糟糕的生活方式和与世界互动的方式，而这正是互联网某种程度上在鼓励的事。所以，如果你哪怕对那些你真的很不同意的人，也能接近成：哦，我也许能从这个人身上学到东西。那位 Black Panther，William Buckley，我们也许会恨，也也许会爱他们。

The Black Panther person, William Buckley, we might hate just love them. - So microcosm of this. There's a guy, Theo, I don't know if you follow him. 所以这件事的一个缩影。有个叫 Theo 的人，我不知道你关不关注他。

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Um, we had a bit of a thing over the fact that we stopped using TypeScript- - Yeah - ... for a project, and he didn't like that and had opinions about that and other actions. And after that I thought like, what a bozo. And, and do you know what? I still think that was a bozo move, and then I can also think like, well, the dude's really into AI. 关注，关注。我们。因为不再在一个项目里用 TypeScript 有过一点过节——。对——他不喜欢那样，对此以及其他举动有看法。那之后我想：真是个傻瓜。你知道吗？我仍然觉得那是个傻瓜举动，然后我也可以想：好吧，这家伙真的很投入 AI。

He's trying all these models, and we can share some excitement about that, so I just started following him yesterday. - Awesome. 他在试所有这些模型，而我们可以分享对那件事的一些兴奋，所以我昨天才开始关注他。太好了。

- I was like, do you know what? I don't have to agree with you on everything. Uh, I don't even have to like some of the things that you did or said or whatever. I can follow you anyway. So if I can follow back Theo, then I think there's room for world peace here. - Yeah, he's actually a really good example. He's really opinionated, Changes his mind quite a bit, can get snarky, but I think he's a good person underneath. - And either way, I just, you know what? 我就想：你知道吗？我不必在所有事情上同意你。我甚至不必喜欢你做过或说过的某些事。我仍然可以关注你。所以如果我能回头关注 Theo，那我觉得世界和平还有空间。对，他其实是个很好的例子。他非常有主见，经常改主意，会尖酸，但我认为他骨子里是个好人。不管怎样，你知道吗？我的 feed 更有意思，当有人在谈我在乎的事情，而我不必在所有事情上同意你。

My feed is more interesting when there's some people talking about things that I care about and yeah, I don't have to agree with you on everything. I just don't. - This I found pretty funny, that you mentioned something your wife said that stuck with you, that all this tech- adjacent extreme longevity focus in men is like anorexia in women, a physical manifestation of anxiety and lack of control. That somehow rang true a little bit. - It certainly did to a lot of people. 我就是不必。我发现挺好笑的，你提到你妻子说过一句让你记住的话：所有这些科技圈周边、男性对极端长寿的执着，就像女性的厌食症，是焦虑和失控感的一种身体表现。那不知怎的听起来有点真。对很多人来说当然是真的。

I think that tweet really popped off, and I don't know if you noticed, but Bryan Johnson chimed in on the thread, and I could see how Bryan would read that as a bit of a jab. And I do think that Jamie was probably thinking of him amongst other people in that conversation. And it's also an example of where even though I'm not subscribing to Bryan's mission of, I think it's the slogan's don't die. I actually I do wanna die. I don't wanna do this forever. 我觉得那条推文真的爆了，我不知道你有没有注意到，Bryan Johnson 也进了那个帖子串，而我能理解 Bryan 会把那当成一种刺。我也确实认为 Jamie 在那次谈话里大概想到了他，以及其他一些人。而且这也是一个例子：即使我并不认同 Bryan 的使命，我想那句口号是 don't die。我其实想死。我不想永远做这件事。

Like, I think the human li- lifespan of about 90 to 100 sounds about right. I'm embracing the finitude of life. We don't have to agree on that. In fact,Bryan is a vastly more interesting human to me because we don't agree with that, and Bryan's willingness to literally put his own skin and all sorts of other body elements in the game for that mission is really interesting. Now, I can have that view, this is really interesting. 我认为人类大约九十到一百岁的寿命听起来刚刚好。我接受生命的有限。我们不必在这一点上同意。事实上，Bryan 对我来说是一个有意思得多的人，正因为我们在那一点上不同意，而 Bryan 愿意为那个使命真正把自己的皮肤和各种其他身体要素押上去，这真的很有意思。现在，我可以持有那种看法：这真的很有意思。

I'm glad Bryan is pursuing this passion of his, and then also find my wife's analysis to ring true, that it does seem like there is some underlying, uh, I don't know, fear of... I was talking to Jamie yesterday about this, and she was saying, Or comparing it to this sense of people who didn't feel like they had lived enough. 我很高兴 Bryan 在追求他的这份热情，然后同时也觉得我妻子的分析说中了，看起来确实有某种底层的，我不知道，对… …的恐惧。我昨天还在跟 Jamie 谈这个，她说，或者把它比成那种感觉：有些人觉得自己活得还不够。

And one of the reasons perhaps that they hadn't lived enough was that modern society now is a surveillance state, not by the state actually, but by each other. There are camera phones everywhere. 而他们也许活得不够的原因之一，是现代社会现在是一个监控国家，其实不是国家在监控，而是彼此在监控。

Every indiscretion or even outburst of fun or cringe is highly likely to be recorded and then shared to the point of ridicule, and what is the rational reaction for humans under those conditions is to pull back, is to make sure you don't dance like nobody's watching because- ... they're probably filming you to your great and eternal embarrassment on the internet, so maybe you just shouldn't dance at all. 到处都是带摄像头的手机。每一次失检，甚至每一次好玩或尴尬的爆发，都极有可能被录下来，然后被分享到被嘲弄的程度，而人类在那些条件下的理性反应就是后撤，就是确保你不要像没人在看那样跳舞，因为——他们大概正在拍你，好让你。在互联网上永远尴尬，所以也许你根本不该跳舞。

And therefore, if we've all retracted to the point that we're barely living, we're clinging on to wanting it to last forever. Now- ... I mean, I'm sure that thesis does not apply in all circumstances. I don't even know if it applies to Bryan or, or anyone else here. But I think there's something to this, that if you feel like you've really lived, you're okay thinking I've lived enough. 因此，如果我们都收缩到几乎没在活的程度，我们就会死死抓住想让它永远持续。现在——我的意思是，我肯定这个论点并不适用于所有情形。我甚至不知道它是否适用于 Bryan 或这里的任何其他人。但我认为这里有些东西：如果你觉得自己真正活过了，你就可以安心地想：我已经活够了。

And that the, it having an end is not something to be fought. Now, is it also possible that this is all just existential post-rationalization, and if tomorrow there was a live forever pill, we'd all take it? Yeah, that's possible. Is it also possible that if we did that, society be, would be worse off? Yes. Is it possible that the human lifespan is the length it is for sociological reasons, not just biological reasons? 而它有一个终点，并不是一件要去对抗的事。那么，这是否也可能全是存在主义的事后合理化，而如果明天有一颗长生不老药，我们都会吃？对，那有可能。如果我们那样做了，社会是否会因此更糟？有可能。人类寿命之所以是这个长度，是否也可能出于社会学原因，而不只是生物学原因？

Yes. So I think these are just all interesting questions, and I just thought her analysis really got to something here. And that discussion has come up afterwards. I mean, that, I think that tweet is like a year old. But just recently, we've been talking about this over-optimizers. 有可能。所以我认为这些都只是有意思的问题，而我只是觉得她的分析真正触及了这里的某件事。后来那场讨论又出现了。我是说，那条推文大概有一年了。但就在最近，我们一直在谈这些过度优化的人。

I saw, uh, Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom had a bit where he was like, "Yeah, okay,maybe we did go a little overboard." And the triggering thing was the Diary of a CEO, where the host was saying something to the effect of, "I had a glass of wine and the next three days were ruined." And that to me, I mean, in his circumstance, I'm sure that's true. Like, if you have not drank any alcohol for a very long time and you have just a little, I could see how it can have effect. 我看到 Chris Williamson，Modern Wisdom，有一段，他像是在说：“是啊，好吧，也许我们确实有点过了。 ”触发点是 Diary of a CEO，主持人说了大意是：“我喝了一杯酒，接下来三天都毁了。 ”而那对我来说，我是说，在他的情形里，我相信那是真的。

But also there's something in that that just triggered a visceral reaction, I think, for a lot of people, and myself included, where I was like, "Fuck,man, I should have a glass of wine just right now, even though I don't usually drink." And in fact I think the alcohol question is a good microcosm to zoom in on. So we've all stopped drinking apparently, like alcohol sales are way down- ... certainly amongst young people. 如果你很久没喝任何酒精，然后只喝一点点，我能理解它会有影响。但那里面也有某种东西，触发了很多人和我自己的一种本能反应，我会想：“操，我现在就该来一杯酒，哪怕我通常不喝。 ”而事实上我认为酒精这个问题是一个很好的缩影，可以放大来看。

And then on the one hand, on the pure health metrics, whatever, we can go like, "Oh wow, isn't that great?" And then I go like, "Yeah, I'm not so sure it is." Like the social lubricant that alcohol can provide may be missed, is missed. I mean, we are in an absolute epidemic of loneliness and misery and depression and whatever, and a fair amount of it just probably comes because you're not interacting enough with other people. 所以我们好像都戒酒了，酒精销量大幅下降——尤其在年轻人里。然后一方面，按纯粹的健康指标，我们会说：“哦哇，那不是很好吗？ ”然后我会想：“是啊，我没那么确定。 ”酒精所能提供的社交润滑也许会被怀念，正在被怀念。我们正处在一场孤独、痛苦和抑郁的绝对流行病里，其中相当一部分大概只是因为你跟其他人互动得不够。

Now, that's before we even talk about coupling, right? Like way down, people having a very hard time meeting a spouse. And- ... a lot of that has moved over to apps that have all sorts of negative outcomes and consequences, right? Like maybe we will look back, or maybe we already are looking back and thinking like, "Eh, do you know what? 而这还没谈到配对，对吧？大幅下降，人们很难遇到配偶。而其中很多已经转移到各种带来负面结果和后果的 app 上，对吧？也许我们会回头看，或者我们已经在回头看，然后想：“呃，你知道吗？

Maybe getting wasted every once in a while was not the worst thing in the world." And whether wasted or not, maybe just having a couple of drinks every Friday or Saturday when you're out and about was part of what helped society get to where it is. Maybe the fact that humans have literally been drinking for whatever it is, like 13,000 years for mending things, had a social purpose, and we pull out Chesterton's fence of our own chagrin, right? 偶尔喝醉一次，也许并不是世上最糟的事。 ”无论醉或不醉，也许只是每周五或周六出门时喝上两杯，就是帮助社会走到今天的一部分。也许人类大约一万三千年来一直在喝酒、用来修补关系，有一种社会目的，而我们拆掉 Chesterton's fence 时会自食其果，对吧？

- As you mentioned, in the spirit of that, so when I traveled across rural China, I did smoke a little bit in my early 20s, but I picked up just for that trip- - A social connector, right? - And I drank humongous amounts, even though I don't really drink these days, because of the social thing. It's the way they show love. 正如你提到的，本着那种精神，所以当我穿越中国乡村时，我二十出头时抽过一点烟，但那次旅行我又捡起来了——。一种社交连接器，对吧？而且我喝了海量的酒，尽管我这些天其实不怎么喝，就因为那种社交的事。那是他们表达爱的方式。

And I also ate a shitload of carbs, which- ... I'm usually low carb. I just like meat. So just because it's the way they show love. And actually even, it's in that society cigarettes, but in most societies, liquor is a thing to do together. And it's a bond. 我也吃了大量碳水，而我通常低碳水。我就是喜欢肉。就因为那是他们表达爱的方式。而实际上，哪怕在那个社会里是香烟，在大多数社会里，酒也是一件要一起做的事。

It doesn't, the benefits that that entails can, in many situations, outweigh the negative consequences like long-term for whatever, however you measure them. - And this is the myopia of modernity, that we reduce things down to like, well, one glass on this long run study meant that you had a 0.1% greater risk of some heart defect. Yes, but if you didn't live at all, what's the point? And again, it's also easy to flip over the other side. 它是一种纽带。它所带来的好处，在很多情形下，可以超过那些负面后果，比如无论你怎么衡量的长期影响。而这就是现代性的短视：我们把事情简化成，好吧，这项长期研究里，一杯酒意味着你某种心脏缺陷的风险高了百分之零点一。是的，但如果你根本没在活，那有什么意义？而且同样也很容易翻到另一边。

Like the only way to live is to get drunk every weekend and eat a bunch of crap and smoke 40 cigarettes a day. No, it's not. Like it doesn't have to be the either/or. This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing my Oura Ring. So I wore the Oura sleep ring for many years, four years. And one day I was just like, "I don't need to know that I had-" ... "a bad night of sleep." Like I know. 比如唯一的活法就是每个周末喝醉、吃一堆垃圾、一天抽四十根烟。不，不是。不必是非此即彼。这也是我不再戴 Oura Ring 的原因之一。我戴了那个 Oura 睡眠戒指很多年，四年。然后有一天我就想：“我不需要知道我昨晚睡得很差。

This added, I don't wanna call it an anxiety, I don't have a lot of anxiety, but this added just like reminder- ... that I had a bad night of sleep, what purpose is it actually playing here? Why do I need to have all these stats? Why do I need to optimize everything? To the point where, again, after that single anecdote, you know, from Diary of a CEO, I was like, "Fuck, I kind of want the opposite." Like- I barely drink at all. A glass of wine once a month maybe. ”我知道。这增加的，我不想叫它焦虑，我没有很多焦虑，但这增加的只是一种提醒——我睡得很差，它在这里到底起什么作用？我为什么需要所有这些统计？我为什么需要优化一切？到了那个程度，再说一遍，在 Diary of a CEO 那个单一轶事之后，我就想：“操，我有点想要相反的。 ”我几乎完全不喝。也许一个月一杯酒。

Like, do you know what? I should start, uh, just on the weekends, get a glass. 你知道吗？我应该开始，就在周末，来一杯。

Maybe two. And also, I mean, I've never been the person to fret about my diet. Um, this is one of the great privileges of being married to, and I'll do a quick aside here. Don't ever call a woman in her 40s a wonderful woman. My wife was so pissed— ... that not only last year did I come on her birthday, that was bad enough, but that I called her a wonderful woman on the show, because that sounded like her name was Nancy and she was 65— ... in the suburb of Rochester. 也许两杯。而且，我从来不是那种为饮食发愁的人。这是嫁给——我这里要岔开一句。永远不要叫一个四十多岁的女人 wonderful woman。我妻子当时气坏了——不仅去年我在她生日那天来上节目，那就已经够糟了，还在节目里叫她 wonderful woman，因为那听起来像她名叫 Nancy，六十五岁，住在 Rochester 郊区。

So I'm like, I was trying to play the 50. Like, no, I don't know, I'm Danish. How would I know? But that didn't go over well. So I'm gonna say awesome woman instead. If you marry an awesome woman who also not only knows how to cook, but enjoys it, do you know what? There's a very traditional division of labor here that has been quite stable through several ... tens of thousands of years in human societies, that perhaps also wasn't the worst idea in the world. 所以我想着我是在打五十岁那张牌。就像，不，我不知道，我是丹麦人。我怎么会知道？但那并不顺利。所以我要改口说 awesome woman。如果你娶到一个 awesome woman，她不仅会做饭，还享受做饭，你知道吗？这里有一种非常传统的劳动分工，已经在人类社会里相当稳定地存在了好几万年，那也许也不是世上最糟的主意。

And I also know there are plenty of men who like to cook, and there are women who don't. But as stereotypes go, eh, that certainly helped me. Like, I don't think I would've been able to just be as relaxed about food if I didn't eat relatively healthy on a, on a regular basis. But the overall point being, just getting out of that optimization game without turning into the opposite. You don't have to be a fat slob on the couch either. You can move around. - Yeah. 我也知道有很多男人喜欢做饭，也有女人不喜欢。但就刻板印象而言，呃，那确实帮了我。如果我不是经常吃得相对健康，我想我不会对食物这么放松。但总的观点是：从那种优化游戏里走出来，同时不要翻到反面。你也不必变成沙发上的胖子。你可以动一动。对。然后我们谈的更大一点是生命的有限。

And then the bigger point we're talking about is the finiteness of life. - Yes. - And I agree with you on this. - This was actually a feature, I built it into Omarchy. So memento mori. Remember death. If you pull down the calendar in Omarchy, you open it by clicking the clock. 是的。在这一点上我同意你。这其实是一个功能，我把它做进了 Omarchy。所以 memento mori。记住死亡。如果你在 Omarchy 里把日历拉下来，你点时钟就能打开它。

It opens up, and the first funny thing, I took it off the internet. There's this account called Year's Progress, and it, every day it updates, and it just shows 63% done with 2026. I don't know if you've seen that one. So it just fills up. So I built that into the calendar. So right now it says, "We're 63% done with 2026." But then if you double-click that, it'll ask you, "When were you born? 它打开后，第一个有意思的东西，我从互联网上拿来的。有一个账号叫 Year's Progress，它每天更新，只显示 2026 年已经过了百分之六十三。我不知道你有没有见过那个。它就那样填满。所以我把它做进了日历。所以现在它写着：“我们 2026 年已经过了百分之六十三。 ”但如果你双击那一行，它会问你：“你哪年出生？

How long do you expect to live?" And the default is 90. So I put in 1979. And then right below the line of, like, how long are we done with the year- - Oh, that's beautiful. 你预期活多久？ ”默认是九十岁。所以我填了 1979。然后就在“这一年过了多少”那一行下面——哦，那太美了。

- ... is a new line that shows how long are you done with your life. I think I'm at 62%. I'm like, if you hover over it, it says, "Memento mori." - That's beautiful. - Fair number of people found it morbid, but this was why it is an Easter egg. It's not, like, exposed. You gotta click a few things to get there. I like the reminder. I like the reminder that time is finite, and I should make the most of it. And this is also one of the privileges of having children. 是一行新的，显示你的生命过了多少。我想我在百分之六十二。如果你把鼠标悬上去，它写着：“Memento mori。 ”那太美了。不少人觉得这阴暗，但这就是为什么它是一个彩蛋。它没有直接暴露出来。你得点几下才能到那里。我喜欢这个提醒。我喜欢被提醒时间是有限的，我应该好好利用它。而这也可以是有孩子的特权之一。

You really realize that the cliches are all true. Oh my God, it goes so fast. And I remember my now 13-year-old being one, being two. I was like, "This was just yesterday." And the reason it's a cliche is because it's a shared experience. Cliches are good. They remind you that you are part of the human experience, and others have been here before you. - I have to ask, you mentioned the amazing woman and great cook. 你真的会意识到那些套话全是真的。天哪，过得太快了。我记得我现在十三岁的孩子一岁、两岁的时候。我会想：“这不就是昨天吗？ ”而它之所以是套话，是因为它是一种共享体验。套话是好的。它们提醒你，你是人类体验的一部分，别人在你之前已经到过这里。我必须问，你提到那个 amazing woman，还是很会做饭。

- Amazing. Very important to remember. Not wonderful, amazing. - Amazing. So there's this... You talked some shit about croissants or something. I saw this, this in a tweet. So is the Danish croissant somehow better? - Actually, Danish croissants are not particularly good. Amazing。非常重要要记住。不是 wonderful，是 amazing。 Amazing。所以有这件事… …你吐槽过可颂什么的。我在一条推文里看到的。所以丹麦可颂不知怎的更好吗？其实，丹麦可颂并不是特别好。

In my opinion, the only place you can find a half-decent croissant, of all places, is 7-Eleven, which is hilarious to me because 7-Eleven in the US is the place where,at least in Chicago, you'd go to get a slushie and try to avoid getting murdered. But in Denmark, 7-Eleven is this very upscale, super nice convenience store, and they just happen to make decent croissants. And it always baffled me that I lived in the United States for 20 freaking years. 在我看来，唯一能找到还算过得去的可颂的地方，说来好笑，居然是 7-Eleven，这让我觉得很好笑，因为美国的 7-Eleven 是那个地方，。至少在芝加哥，你去买 slushie、还得尽量避免被杀。但在丹麦，7-Eleven 是这种很上档次、超级好的便利店，而他们恰好能做出像样的可颂。这总让我困惑：我在美国住了整整二十年。

I have yet to have a single croissant that's even at the level of a 7-Eleven croissant in Copenhagen. 我还没吃过一个能达到哥本哈根 7-Eleven 可颂水平的可颂。

That seems improbable. - Have you understood why? - No, I've legitimately considered hiring an investigative journalist to get to the bottom of this, because the number of theories I've heard have been all over the place. It's the water. It's the butter. It's the skill. It's the this, it's the that, it's the other thing. I'm like, none of it adds up to me. If it's the butter, can't you just import it? I thought I saw Danish butter in some supermarkets over here like Lurpak. 那看起来不太可能。你搞明白为什么了吗？没有，我认真考虑过雇一个调查记者把这件事查到底，因为我听过的理论遍地都是。是水。是黄油。是手艺。是这个、那个、另一个。我都对不上。如果是黄油，你不能进口吗？我好像在这边一些超市见过丹麦黄油，比如 Lurpak。

So that can't be it. Can it be the skill? No, it can't be the skill. There are plenty of French people and Belgian people, the best croissant makers in the world, who live in the US. Like, what is the reason? And then I get the second thing, which is- ... "No, no, you just haven't gone to the right place." I've literally gone to 15 of quote unquote- ... "the right place," and all the croissants were shit. 所以不可能是那个。会是手艺吗？不可能是手艺。世界上最好的可颂师傅，有很多法国人和比利时人住在美国。那原因是什么？然后我得到第二种说法，就是：“不，不，你只是没去对的地方。 ”我真的去过十五家所谓“对的地方”，所有可颂都是垃圾。

So before I leave the planet, I have to get to the bottom of why the United States cannot make a proper croissant. And I don't, I'm not even asking about peak French croissants, peak Belgian croissants- ... which are the best croissants in the world. I'm just asking about the 7-Eleven croissant from Copenhagen. Is that too much to ask for? - That's a fascinating mystery. 所以在我离开这个星球之前，我必须搞清楚为什么美国做不出一个像样的可颂。而且我甚至不是在要求巅峰的法国可颂、巅峰的比利时可颂——那是世界上最好的可颂。我只是在要求哥本哈根 7-Eleven 的那个可颂。这要求过分吗？那是一个迷人的谜。

What, zooming out, what's your, what's your favorite... This makes me want to know, what's your favorite meal? Like, if you, if I gave you a last meal and were to murder you after. - It all depends whether it's lunch or it's dinner. If it's lunch, it- - It's one meal. 往外拉一层，你最喜欢的… …这让我想知道，你最喜欢的一餐是什么？比如，如果我给你最后一餐，然后把你杀了。这完全取决于是午餐还是晚餐。如果是午餐，它——就是一餐。

What's, what's... I feel like if you're getting murdered, it doesn't really matter if it's lunch or dinner. - Well, depends on what time of day you're getting murdered. - Oh, I see. - If it's an afternoon execution, I only get lunch. - Okay. - And if I get lunch, it's at Louisiana, the museum in north of Copenhagen. I was just there with Jamie two days ago, and we go there all the time. 什么… …我觉得如果你要被杀，午餐还是晚餐其实无所谓。那取决于你在一天的什么时候被杀。哦，我明白了。如果是下午处决，我就只有午餐。好。而如果我吃午餐，那是在 Louisiana，哥本哈根北面的那家博物馆。两天前我刚跟 Jamie 去过，我们经常去。

The museum is lovely. We don't go for the museum. We go for the cafeteria. That in itself sounds crazy. Like- - Yeah, it does - ... you're gonna, you're gonna drive half an hour to go to a cafeteria. Well, it just so happens to be, it is the best lunch I've probably ever had in my life. 博物馆很可爱。我们不是为博物馆去的。我们是为食堂去的。这本身听起来就疯。就像——对，确实——你要开半小时车去一家食堂。好吧，它恰好是我这辈子大概吃过的最好的午餐。

The chef there is just unbelievably good, and not only is the food amazing, what's even more amazing to my system thinking brain is that at any one time when we were up there, I think there were probably 200 people waiting for their food. And our food was delivered in five minutes. They have a small menu, and clearly they make it in bulk, and it's unbelievably delicious. - Just a cafeteria at a museum? 那里的主厨就是好得令人难以置信，而且对爱做系统思考的我的脑子来说，更惊人的是：我们在那里的任何时候，我想大概有两百人在等他们的食物。而我们的食物五分钟就上来了。他们菜单很小，而且显然是批量做的，却美味得难以置信。

- It's a cafeteria at a museum that happens to have the best lunch I've ever had anywhere in my life. - What kind of food are we talking about? What kind of lunch food? - It's, like, Nordic cuisine, so it's, it's... A funny thing is the menu, when I look at it, I was like, "Do you know what? 就是博物馆里的一家食堂？就是博物馆里的一家食堂，却恰好有我这辈子在任何地方吃过的最好的午餐。我们说的是哪种食物？哪种午餐食物？是那种北欧料理，所以它是… …有意思的是菜单，我看着它会想：“你知道吗？

If I saw this menu- As a kid, I'd go like,"I'm not eating here." It's like, I don't know- - This is pretty fancy - ... root free fruit and- ... and onions- ... and all sorts of healthy stuff. That sounds disgusting. And then you sit down and eat it, and the angels sing. But it's even more particular than that. It's the butter. 如果我小时候看到这张菜单，我会说，我不在这儿吃。 ”就像，我不知道——这挺精致的——根茎类、水果，还有洋葱，还有各种健康的东西。听起来很恶心。然后你坐下吃，天使在唱歌。但比那还更特别。是黄油。他们那里的打发黄油，世界上任何地方最好的黄油。

The whipped butter that they have there, the best butter anywhere in the world. - I think that has to be connected to the croissant mystery too. - There must be some connection. But literally- ... even in Paris, I've never had whipped butter that tastes as delicious as the butter does at Louisiana in Copenhagen. Literally, I would drive 30 minutes- ... to have bread and butter at the cafeteria in Louisiana. - Well, how'd you discover that? 我觉得这一定也跟可颂之谜有关。一定有某种联系。但真的——哪怕在巴黎，我也从没吃过像哥本哈根 Louisiana 的黄油那样好吃的打发黄油。真的，我会开三十分钟车，就为了在 Louisiana 的食堂吃面包和黄油。

Just one day you went to the museum and- - I think we just went to the museum- - And you tried a whole dish. - ... and we had the lunch, and we were like... - This is weird. - This is rivaling the best tasting restaurants- ... I've ever been to in my life, and I've gone to Noma a couple of times and tried what there is to try, and this is right up there. - All right. What about dinner, since you mentioned? 那你怎么发现的？就是有一天你去了博物馆然后——我想我们就是去了博物馆——。然后你试了一整道菜。 ——然后我们吃了午餐，然后我们就… …这很怪。这能媲美我这辈子去过的最好吃的餐厅，而我去过几次 Noma，该试的都试过了，而这个就在那个水平上。好。那晚餐呢，既然你提到了？

Is it something different that you have to think- - Well, I think there's a lot of good options in Copenhagen, but actually I'll pick a place in Spain. So there is this place in Marbella called Puente Romano. It's a hotel, and down by the beach, they have this beach restaurant with fresh seafood. 是不是得想点不同的——我想哥本哈根有很多好选择，但其实我会选西班牙的一个地方。马尔贝拉有个地方叫 Puente Romano。那是一家酒店，海边有这家海滩餐厅，新鲜海鲜。

Unbelievably delicious. I'm trying to remember what it's called, but yeah, if you look it up, the beach seafood place at Puente Romano is incredible. - How much of great food is, like, the place and the person you're with, right? Or the, or the experience when you first are there? 美味得难以置信。我想不起它叫什么了，但如果你去查，Puente Romano 的海滩海鲜餐厅非常棒。美食有多少是地方、以及你跟谁在一起，对吧？或者你第一次在那里的体验？

- I mean, the ambiance certainly helps, but I think my taste buds are also just- - Okay, that- - ... in tune for- - So it's legit. - ... flavors - ... it is just good food. - It's just really good food. 氛围。当然有帮助，但我觉得我的味蕾也只是——。好，那——对味道很准——所以是真的。 ——它就是好食物。就是真的很好吃。

Because for ex- that cafeteria, it is, there's a lot of people. Like, I wouldn't rate it as like, oh my God, this is just a place I want to sit for two hours. But the food is so delicious. - That's one of the things I'm, in traveling across the country, I'm realizing to sample without bias, just try things. 'Cause you might, I guess you might just be surprised. Maybe I'll find your croissant. All right, we've talked about mortality. Talked about food. 因为比如说那个食堂，人很多。我不会把它评成：哦天哪，这就是我想坐两个小时的地方。但食物太好吃了。这是我穿越这个国家时正在意识到的一件事：不带偏见地去尝。因为你可能会，我想你可能会感到惊喜。也许我会找到你的可颂。好，我们谈过死亡。谈过食物。

- Settled end of life. - What do you thousand years from now, what do you think is the future of humans, human civilization? You think we're gonna make it? - A thousand years from now? Man, I'm having trouble predicting 12 months from now. - I know. - A thousand? - You think we got a shot? - Oh, I'm gonna bet on optimism. I'm gonna bet on a multi-planetary species. 生命尽头这件事谈定了。一千年后，你觉得人类、人类文明的未来会是什么？你觉得我们能撑过去吗？一千年后？我预测十二个月后都有困难。我知道。一千年？你觉得我们有机会吗？哦，我会押乐观。我会押我们会成为多行星物种。

I'm gonna bet that Elon gets that rocket to Mars, and we figure out how to bend space-time and discover some wormholes or, or something. - Once we do, do you think,you think all humans on Earth will die once or twice and be repopulated After we get a good backup going? - I mean, that was actually one of my favorite episodes of Black Mirror, the one where they get uploaded to the 1980s sea town somewhere. 我会押 Elon 把那枚火箭送到火星，然后我们搞明白怎么弯曲时空、发现一些虫洞，或者别的什么。一旦我们做到了，你觉得，。等我们有了像样的备份之后，地球上所有人会死掉一次或两次，然后再被重新填上？那其实是我最喜欢的 Black Mirror 其中一集，他们被上传到八十年代某个海边小镇。

And I just thought like, wow, this is both such a dark moment, yet also so beautiful in the shared recognition that, like, the '80s were actually kind of amazing. 我就想，哇，这一刻既那么黑暗，又那么美，因为大家共同承认：八十年代其实挺了不起的。

Like, I don't have a lot of nostalgia for many moments, but I do have nostalgia for the '80s. - But- - And they say something about, like, whatever place and time you were in, the music you were listening to when you were 12 or- ... or 14, 15, something like that, that's what's gonna stick with you. 我对很多时刻没有多少怀旧，但我确实怀旧八十年代。但——而且他们说，无论你在什么地方、什么时候，你十二岁，或者十四、十五岁左右听的那些音乐，那就是会跟着你的东西。不，我在八十年代才到十岁。

Like, no, I was only, I got to be 10 in the '80s. So this was my early childhood, and I still have an unbelievably fond affiliation with the '80s. So if I'm gonna be uploaded to the sky- - You want it to be the '80s? - ... I'm doing the '80s. 所以那是我的童年早期，而我仍然对八十年代有一种难以置信的亲近。所以如果我要被上传到天上——你希望是八十年代？ ——那我选八十年代。

- Wow. I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say that. Usually it's '70s or '90s. - Oh, and the- - Because the '80s is a- - I really don't like the '90s. Can we talk about this? - No, I'm done. Not done. - To me, this was the great turning point of nihilism. That both the music, the genre, the fashion- ... everything turned from, like, this glamour, the pop, the optimism, even the yuppies and everything- ... to grunge and Nirvana. 哇。我其实从没听人这么说过。通常是七十年代或九十年代。哦，还有——因为八十年代是——。我真的不喜欢九十年代。我们能谈谈这个吗？不，我谈完了。不是谈完了。对我来说，那是虚无主义的大转折点。音乐、类型、时尚——一切都从那种光鲜、那种流行、那种乐观，甚至雅皮士和所有那些——转到 grunge 和 Nirvana。

And even though, I mean, I like the music, I don't like the ethics. I don't like- ... the morals. I don't like any of the underpinnings to it. There was just such a defeatism to it- ... that in retrospect, I look back upon it, if I'm gonna get reinserted into the matrix, it's gonna be the '80s. - That was full of optimism and fun- - Yes - ... and colors. 尽管我喜欢那些音乐，我不喜欢那种伦理。我不喜欢那种道德。我不喜欢它底下的任何东西。那里面就是有一种失败主义——回头看，如果我要被重新插入 matrix，那会是八十年代。那充满了乐观和乐趣——。是的——还有颜色。

- Yes. I remember having these orange pants- ... with, like, white dots on them. That was just a normal thing kids could wear in the '80s. I've never fucking seen that today. Or I mean, even in the '90s, it all turned just, like, Seattle gray. Great regression. - So the Nietzschean, you know, this idea of eternal recurrence. 是的。我记得有这些橙色裤子，上面有白点。那在八十年代就是小孩能穿的正常东西。我今天他妈的再也没见过。或者说，哪怕到了九十年代，一切都变成了那种西雅图灰。大倒退。所以那种 Nietzschean 的，你知道，永恒轮回这个想法。

If you do a Groundhog Day and you live forever, you want it to be in the orange pants with the white dots in the '80s. - Maybe I'm gonna skip the orange pants, but- - No - ... I'm definitely picking the '80s. - You said it. All right, DHH. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for being an inspiration to all of us, for building cool shit in the world, and thank you for talking today. - Anytime. Thank you, Lex, again for having me. - Yeah. 如果你来一场 Groundhog Day，永远活下去，你会希望是穿着带白点的橙色裤子，活在八十年代。也许我会跳过那条橙色裤子，但——。不——我肯定选八十年代。你说了。好，DHH。非常感谢你做的一切。感谢你成为我们所有人的启发，在世界上做出很酷的东西，也感谢你今天来谈。随时。谢谢你，Lex，再次感谢你邀请我。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with DHH. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson. "Once you make a decision, the universe conspires to make it happen." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. 好。感谢收听这次与 DHH 的对话。要支持这个播客，请查看简介里的赞助商，你也可以在那里找到联系我、提问、给反馈等等的链接。现在，让我用 Ralph Waldo Emerson 的几句话送你：“一旦你做出决定，宇宙就会合谋让它发生。 ”感谢收听，希望下次再见。